Aghhhhhhhhhhhhh, C&G Level 2 MMA

[Kent]

Looking at the video and these can be misleading here are a few things I think might help

1 run hotter faster
2 too much push aim for just off square on
3 the arc looks way long push right in there
4 sticky starts can be avoided by running hotter and striking up going down fast in the area to be welded over then reversing to uphill when you reach the tye in
5 is there a reason your not grinding the tye in

Btw darn right dump those rods that are exuding white powder they are fubar!

What do you expect but a closing gap if you don't tack it or strap it.

If the instructor can't demo it then you might as well teach yourself - as suspected those that can generally don't take city and guilds students on

Stick to the rods listed for the application as that will be listed on the testing

 

[HughF]

Are you ever going to be doing this in an environment where procedure dictates you open root with 6013? Or are you taking the C&G just to learn?

 

[Kent]

Important to learn the rods given because sometimes they are all you will have to hand
Try buying fast freeze rods locally quickly or being faced with a quick repair
Undoubted 6010 or 6011 are very suited but it's just not part of the equation here

 

[HughF]

I just think he's ******* into the wind trying to do that root with imho an unsuitable rod for the job, and getting frustrated at the lack of progress as a result. Unless procedures dictate a 6013 root, keep nu5 in stock and use them. Stock management isn't that hard.

 

[AdrianH]

Long one here.

Sorry for the delay in responding to wheresmejumper's post last night, I would have thought that the end pieces may have helped stop the pulling they are 50 x 6mm thick approx 15 to 20 wide with 20mm welds on them, what actually happened at the end of the welded piece is the bit on the end has actually bunched up, so it shows how much force is in the contracting metal, so as I said I will try going from 2.5mm to 4mm gap and at least give it a go.

All of you are asking why I am not grinding in the restarts/ties, well this may be a mistake on my part or misinterpreting the classes on Thursday, but sure I was told no regrinding before I lay another run. So I am trying to do like I get when doing a fillet or flat bead, sort of leave a creator and then go back on it on the restart, sort of start at the bottom for the arc, then to the back and down again. Sorry if that does not make sense, but, as I said under the impression that the grinder is just to prep beforehand, I have a chipping hammer and wire brush in the welding bay and that is it. Perhaps some of the others that have done the course could advise on what they could do.

I think the tutor is OK, , yes he was in the industry for years before coming to teach, but in all honesty could you all pick up two bits of metal and do a perfect root weld if you have not done it for a few years, so I was expecting to check his technique, angle of rod etc and compare to what I was trying.

My issue is as mentioned at the beginning is there is 14 of us and I am the only one on MMA. It is a mix of level 1 and level 2 and some of the MIG guys Level 1are 3 to a bay, they probably feel aggrieved that I am in my own bay, but the tutors time will be with them, if I ask he does come and assist, so I am not complaining, I decided to make it hard for me.

Hi Hugh, yes watched some videos, mainly found vertical up found two flat V butts as you said with 6010 and then capping 7018.

Hi kent, thanks for the comments, I am sure hotter and faster will come with practice, thanks for the comment on angle, looking at the video again I see what you mean, I was not trying to be that steep but obviously the video tells no lies.
About to head off for some new rods, that is why I ordered the 2.5mm ESAB's but will not get them until weekend or Monday so picking up some Murex. The other rods are in the oven, I think something is leaching out of the covering, age and damp not helping, they must be going back years, and yes as mentioned and shown in one of the pics the straps are welded on.

Hugh

I taking this C&G just to learn, I am not in any employment that needs it, I do use a soldering iron at work sometimes to replace electronic components but this is for me to make safer welds, recognise what is good/bad or indifferent. I looked through some Flange Monkeys posts the other night with his 6013 work and talking with a guy called puddles from the states, nice work, must come from years of practice and a very steady hand.

What I find strange on the course is the number of lads who are already in the welding profession, some for years, some doing work I would never expect of them as some sounds structural, one that seems to do a lot of repairs to digger buckets and machinery etc. Many turn up in their working clothes and can MIG weld the pieces very neatly etc, but are only now doing C&G, mostly because they want to, a few because the company are paying, but I would suspect they have skilled work colleges showing them the ropes.

Adrian

 

[HughF]

You must feather your tacks or you'll get a lof when you run onto them. you need a grinder in the bay with you.

How much is the course costing? Bet you could buy a boat load of decent (suitable :P) rods for the cost and practice on your own with the help of youtube and achieve the same result.

 

[AdrianH]

You must feather your tacks or you'll get a lof when you run onto them. you need a grinder in the bay with you.

How much is the course costing? Bet you could buy a boat load of decent (suitable :P) rods for the cost and practice on your own with the help of youtube and achieve the same result.

The course is £270 for 15 weeks I would guess around 2.5 hours active per night, £90plus is for the C&G fees for paperwork. So less then £180, I put it down to £4.80 per hour to use the facilities at the college and as much metal and welding rods as I can go through and I try my best to do so . If I practice I may even get the bit of paper at the end.

I may look for a portable/battery grinder to take with me. By the way the cheap and cheerful B&Q angle grinders for very cheap money, I stalled one the other day and had smoked from it, still runs, but the lower power means not as robust and you cant push them.

Back in now with new rods and a new mask early dinner then in the garage.

Adrian

 

[Richard.]

You must feather your tacks or you'll get a lof when you run onto them. you need a grinder in the bay with you.

How much is the course costing? Bet you could buy a boat load of decent (suitable :P) rods for the cost and practice on your own with the help of youtube and achieve the same result.

I disagree and the fact he's paying out of his own pocket to have some tuition and progress with his skills well that's really good and something a lot of people won't do. Videos and self teaching will get some results but there is no substitute to having 1-1 guidance with a decent guy over your shoulder slapping your wrist. Jody might know a trick or two but he can't offer personal support or judgement on your results through a lap top screen. To the op (Ad) it's a skill and it won't come easy, I'm not the greatest with an mma set, I can achieve what your trying to do but can I do it every time perfect? I doubt it. With a Tig set no problem. But that's what I do. I think your doing a grand job and the course is money well spent.

 

[HughF]

That doesn't sound too bad cost wise. I probably spend more than than on fuel for the engine drive, rods and metal when I practice at home (no mains electric)...

I have a cordless dewalt 18v, it's excellent. buy one naked, used off ebay and stick a new battery in it, they work very well.

 

[Kent]

Yes I very much should expect the teacher to be able to do what he was teaching
Being honest though I expected he couldn't do it! First thing I should ask for is a demo no demo then refund please

 

[HughF]

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?282681-6013-open-root-advice

 

[AdrianH]

pdg, I am not knocking the grinder, the main unit is a AEG that cost money so I have a wire cup on the B&Q to clean out the slag and with to much pressure stalled and it smoked, still running and if it failed I would be OK and not expecting my money back, just a warning, they do sound quite juck! I put new grease in mine to start with, but just does not sound correct, either of them (I got two).

Need more steel.

Adrian

 

[AdrianH]

OK new rods, larger gap going from 2.5 to 3.2 mm. This was the first I did with this set up, the second was worse but hey ho!

More of a back and forward motion, rod amps still down in the 65 Amp area
.
Ran out of rod at the end, so did not restart.

Bottom side before cleaning.

And after flipped around right is now left!
Now I felt a bit better with this, I was getting through to the back side, was getting some, not good control of the little hole that wanted to run away.

I find the slag coating is a real pain to remove, I know it will be easier as I get smoother and the surface is better but in the gap here I really need a sharp hammer point to get in there.

Last picture is a capping, but it's not really as not enough rod in there, should be slowing it down a bit.


the depression at the end is where the hole was.

Again more practice, practice and practice needed. Got an old book to read for £7 The science and practice of Welding Vol 2 A.C Davis. Bed time reading.

Adrian

Richard, thanks for the encouragement, it is appreciated.

Teaching now is more about planning, moneys, getting enough pupils across the door, I would not expect them to be constantly welding, but have the skills to recognise what is wrong and provide pointers etc.

Adrian

 

[Richard.]

If he's teaching it Adrian he ideally should be able to do it. It's a practical course and he should perform something that you aim to replicate. The moment he shows he cannot perform a task that he expects his students to do his position becomes weak. I'm sure he can do it but you need to grab him and say "I'm struggling here please show me" if he can't do it then he's bought himself down to your level and your respect and faith in him will lower.

 

[HughF]

And then it is time to write a strongly worded letter to the head of the college and make a decision 'am I going to carry on with this course or spend the time teaching myself'...

 

[PTvor]

If he's teaching it Adrian he ideally should be able to do it. It's a practical course and he should perform something that you aim to replicate. The moment he shows he cannot perform a task that he expects his students to do his position becomes weak. I'm sure he can do it but you need to grab him and say "I'm struggling here please show me" if he can't do it then he's bought himself down to your level and your respect and faith in him will lower.

Yes, because if he can't do it, the student is bound to ask whether it's possible with this equipment and these materials. If you can see someone else do something with the tools and materials, then you know it can be done and
it's a question of developing the skill. If they can't do it, you're left asking whether it's possible at all with what you've been given.

 

[AdrianH]

And I am sure he can do it, but not just on the first go! He would need to be excellent on MIG, TIG and MMA and be constantly doing them all day in and day out, how do you become proficient at a task, if not repeating it all the time. In most of our jobs we have the same processes to do over and over again, dont do it for a few months and you get skill fade, does it mean you can't do it or not know how to teach another, of course not. Just means you may need a bit of practice yourselves, bet he can easily cover the MIG and TIG skills as that is probably 99% of what he is teaching as that is what the students and business want, not MMA or I would not be the only one there doing it.

And I have paid the money so I will continue doing it., as I said the costs are not OTT.
Adrian

 

[Richard.]

Fair enough Ad. At some point though he is going to have to perform that joint in front of you so you can see it been done and note the technique. Keep badgering him if you want to progress. And as always best of luck.
Rich.

 

[Tigman]

when I was at colledge doing city and Guilds pipe welding we welded plate with 6013 all the time , all positions , bend tested the final pieces then on to pipe with 6013 again I dont see the problem with 6013 !

 

[Tigman]

Never used a 6010 0r 6011 , used 7018 or 6013 , i do or have done a lot of vertical up with 6013 and i do pipe with 6013 I love a 6013 lol