Aghhhhhhhhhhhhh, C&G Level 2 MMA

[Bill Edwards]

I also agree that the tutor must be able to show you how it's done, and ask him to do so.
You need to see his technique, and also that it can be done with the prep, rods and current. Then stick with those settings because you will then know it's you at fault. Constantly altering things when the main problem is you is really not going to help at all.

He did have a very good career history, but I can still recall my welding tutor demonstrating two joints to me, just going straight in and making a perfect run first time. And on an open root, the power was too high but (to my amazement!) he still managed a perfect bead. That guy could weld, and that's what I expect from a welding teacher - which does sound to be lacking with yours.

Personally, I dislike 6013 rods for most things. It's what I learned on (doing all the stuff you are), plus years of farm equipment repairs, welding excavator buckets, oil/gas tight joints... it can be done.
But then I tried 7018 and haven't been back, then moved onto 6010/1 cellulose and vastly prefer them for root runs. But I can understand why you may wish to continue with 6013 (also because they're available as you've paid to be using them) for the time being. It isn't the easy way though!

 

[Richard.]

I love 6013's they are great for a general pull out the box and stitch away. They suit 80% of general fab work and in capable hands can perform full pen open roots. Yes a fast freeze cel is the easier option but as Kent (again) rightly says you've not always got perfect gear to hand. Remember his job is to teach you to be a better welder and trust me if you can perform that joint with a rutile you'll be on the road to been a good welder so don't give up and take the easy way out. That joint is possible I've successfully done it myself and mma is not my primary process.

 

[AdrianH]

To be honest there is no procedure, for this but this is from some information on here:-

I am working 6 mm so I am using a 2mm face and 2.5 to 3.2mm gap at the present and will probably be sticking with that. Current 65 Amps DCEP.

Adrian

 

[Richard.]

Restricted to single run only or is capping allowed?

Just curious and contemplating having a bit of a go with my poor skills and bargain basement 6013s

It's just a root run. The filling/capping passes are not relivent . It states plate thickness 5-10 mm so it's not critical that it's filled up the critical part is the root on the back is nicely fused to both sides of the joint and the face is fused with no incisions. The stop start point needs to be spot on too. Blend a good inch back to start from.

 

[AdrianH]

I am struggling with the root run, but the test is for it all including capping, sorry I should have included the first page but it can all be downloaded from Mig-welding.

All is available here, found this recently, very.
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/wiki/Attending_a_college_welding_course use the links at the bottom of the page.

The first page is here:-

You can decide to do all tests in 3mm or 6mm, I picked 6mm as my thinking was I would use MIG for the thinner work at home.

Adrian

 

[Richard.]

Plate thickness. It's stating a different test instead of nick break on the stop/start if the plate is thinner than 3mm. It's a generic set of instructions.

 

[Richard.]

No need to apologise for not including the first page - it's me being lazy and not looking

Anyway, I've probably sidetracked this thread enough and I'm not exactly giving you anything to work with, so I'll shut up now!

Not true. If you pull it off then you've given him a lot to work with as he'll wanna know what you set everything to.

 

[HughF]

I'm going to have a go at this later, I'll probably use 10mm and I'll try both a 6011 and a 6013 root.

 

[Tigman]

HughF why dont you try 6013 , thats what AdrianH is using , i must admit I had a go this afternoon 6mm plate but only 100mm long , 2mm land and a 2mm gap , 75 amps on the Quasiarc , I got penetration but it sucked back caught the edges but sucked in in the middle , needed a bigger gap for my liking , I will have another go tommorrow with 2.5 gap !

 

[Tigman]

Sorry HughF misread your post , your gonna try both ! ive never used 6011 im intrigued !

 

[Kent]

If he's teaching it Adrian he ideally should be able to do it. It's a practical course and he should perform something that you aim to replicate. The moment he shows he cannot perform a task that he expects his students to do his position becomes weak. I'm sure he can do it but you need to grab him and say "I'm struggling here please show me" if he can't do it then he's bought himself down to your level and your respect and faith in him will lower.

Totally agree. Never suspected the guy could do this on request

 

[AdrianH]

Not managed to have another go today proper work is getting in the way. All I have done tonight is prep some pieces ready for tomorrow evening at the course it gives me a head start.

Sol will have another go tomorrow night with my previous gap settings and see how I do.

My ESAB 2.5 mm rods turned up today, the alarming bit was that no-one was in, so fed-Ex left them in sight just outside the front door. Wife spotted them coming home.

One thing I will probably do is try and pick up a cheep heated quiver, the garage is not insulated so could be worth while having some pre-warmed before I start. Not sure if I would be allowed to store packs in the airing cupboard.

Adrian

 

[Bill Edwards]

Stick them in the airing cupboard now while they look to be in a clean and shiny pack, then take what you need as you need them.

 

[AdrianH]

Did anyone manage to crack it, found it easy? If you did and not a million miles away, you may get a visit.

I tried again at college and had mixed results, the tutor had a go and was happy with a section after a bit of practice,setting around same as I am using amps slightly higher, low 70's were I run at 65 Amps, but the instructor slightly faster travel, I think. Said just down to practice.

One thing I need to stop doing is trying to get a 1 to 2mm bead on the bottom of the plate as it is not required, just full pen. Think I may be holding for to long, gets too hot and blows a hole.

No I can not grind the stop/start. So that is out, portable grinder not required.

Anyway decided to get on with others such as the lap vertical up, need practice in my mind to get it to look better, i.e not as much metal in there and flatter. But the instructor seemed more then happy with my meagre attempts on the night So will get on with the other sections and keep practising the V butts as and when, but not get to bogged down with the one piece.

Tried the ESAB 46.30 2.5mm rods at home and different again to my previous rods, harder to get a smooth bead with out all the ridges, so plan to just do as much time as I can, having the boiler changed today and tomorrow so not getting as much time in the garage as I would like.

Question to the others that have done the course, lap joint did you use 3.2 or two 2.5mm rods, looks like either will do, but I may do less damage to the top edge with 2.5mm.

Adrian

p.s. rods are in the airing cupboard for the time being.

 

[HughF]

Not allowed to grind the stop/starts??? This course sounds like a f*****g joke to be honest Adrian. How do they expect you to avoid lack of fusion issues when dropping onto and off any tacks win the bevel? Especially with a low penetrating rod like a 6013?

No, I haven't had a chance to get a few hood hours in yet, perhaps towards the end of the week.

 

[Tigman]

Havent had a chance to have another go yet !

 

[wheresmejumper]

If things get a bit 'ridgey' or bumpy,increase your arc length just a little. (You hear tight tight arc length everywhere but every rod needs to breathe)
it can do 2 things,firstly heat up the weld pool a little to wet out,or blend in, a bit better
and secondly,it stops you catching the molten slag with the rod tip as you weave across.this can leave a textured marking on the finished bead

 

[Tinbasherdan]

youre more than welcome to pop round to mine Adrian, its a while since I have done an open root like that but youre free to use my plant etc, and the kettles always on

 

[AdrianH]

youre more than welcome to pop round to mine Adrian, its a while since I have done an open root like that but youre free to use my plant etc, and the kettles always on

Thanks for the offer, I will hold in reserve.

I have not had as much time in the garage as I would like, seem to be spending money on house hold items.. No welding this Thursday night as half term at the college.

I have done a test piece, but suspect it will fail at a stop start boundary when we do the nick break test, this was for a fillet joint in the Horizontal/vertical position, had to be a multi-run joint so used 2.5mm rod for the root run and 3.5 for a weaved cap, it looked OK on the outside, but suspect as I said the stop and start bit in the root.
I find it hard to just start a weld and not end up with the weld puddle and slag overtaking the arc whilst it heats up and starts to fuse the metal. No I can not grind out the stop. Perhaps I am taking the rod away to quickly when stopping but I notice a small crescent in the root, that then needs to be filled when I start6 with a new rod. Perhaps rather then whip the rod away I should hold steady and let it fill a bit more, then long arc until it breaks??

When I have cut pieces at home up I can see this as a small void in the root, the rest is fine getting root penitration for the rest, just this bit. practice and practice again I guess.

Question on vertical joints.

Please take a look at these pics here:-

Is the 20 to 30 degrees as show in the pictures just because they show a difference in the thickness in the two metals, or would you do the same angle for both pieces at 1/4 inch.

I think it is because you direct the arc at the thicker metal, but I also find when trying at 45 degrees that I burn away a lot of the top edge of metal when both are 1/4"

Adrian

 

[AdrianH]

Update on my C&G, I have done 3 out of the 5 test pieces,
Horizontal/vertical Fillet, Vertical Fillet and Vertical Lap joint. Now going back to the ones I still have the biggest problem with being the flat V butt weld. Did 4 pieces in the garage today, 1 and 2 were very little penetration but looked good on the top, I only every check the bottom of the plate to see he pen after I run the cap, 2 was better then 1 but still just.

Piece 3 was a complete disaster as I the holes got the better of me as I was trying to slow it all down to get more pen or bead on the under side.
below is the top and bottom of No4.



The plates are approx 150mm long. This is the most consistent I have managed to get yet, still some pin holes and a small section just not above the surface.

Getting there slowly, back at it tomorrow.

Adrian