RWD3M
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This! Been saying it for years.
Then, just when we get a golden oppportunity, along comes Pfizer, AZ..........
- Thread starter Miranda
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Then, just when we get a golden oppportunity, along comes Pfizer, AZ..........
Miranda
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Very non woke, but I thought exactly the same thing… there’s still a chance.This! Been saying it for years.
Then, just when we get a golden oppportunity, along comes Pfizer, AZ..........
RWD3M
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I don't even know (or care) what 'woke' means.Very non woke, but I thought exactly the same thing… there’s still a chance.
A lot of people on this planet nead a good healthy dose of reality! IMO!
We can but hope
Pete.
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Another point made earlier is that the planet and it's ecosystems will go on whether we 'ruin' it from our perspective or not. The thing with us humans is that we only judge things from out own perspective in terms of the quality of the environment. CO2 levels have been much higher in the distant past and the seas much lower (and higher) - this morning there was a TV documentary on that showed that the sea levels were once 120 METRES lower than now because much of the water was on the land as ice. We would be horrified if we 'caused' this but it's already happened at least one time and it will doubtless happen again. All of the large creatures were wiped out by a world-changing event that killed off most of the vegetation too, and the world was covered in ferns because they don't require pollination so were quickest to propagate. Then other plants slowly took over. Did the ferns see this as unfair that 'their' world was being ruined by developing species? Nope, it is the natural order of things. We as humans are part of the ecosystem so everything we do to the environment is also part of the natural order - to our own benefit initially and ultimately possibly our own demise. Beyond that the world will continue and still support life whether we're a part of the ecosystem or not. We're like the locust-swarm that strips the land bare of crops. The damage is only momentary, relatively speaking.
Our presence here is the blink of an eye in the life-supporting span of the planet.
Our presence here is the blink of an eye in the life-supporting span of the planet.
RWD3M
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Very well put, my thoughts exactly!
eLuSiVeMiTe
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Found a solution in the UK
It's called the benifits system
Miranda
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The sad thing as far as I see it though is that we are taking out everything else as collateral damage …
RWD3M
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I agree, it is rather sad.
Screwdriver
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Just watching an interesting exposé on them huge blocks and obelisks the Egyptians "built". The theory goes these are inherited artefacts from an even more ancient civilisation which they suggest might have existed prior to the Younger Dryas period (which I think you refer to). The idea goes that these amazingly large and accurately carved stone monuments were found in ancient Egypt by the Egyptians and merely curated by them. Whereas the extraordinary precision (and location) of some of these artefacts could not possibly have been created by the tools or technology known to the Egyptians.
It is a very compelling idea that 15-20 thousand years ago, humanity had developed a thriving culture and technologically advanced civilisation (with lathes and machinery!), wiped out during a hiccough during the early Holocene as we emerged from the last mini ice age. I mean, look how far we have come in the past 200 years...
Some of the giant granite blocks are built to a precision measured in a few thousandths of an inch. They are also six feet long, weigh fifty tons and are 30 metres underground in a labyrinth of tunnels under the Egyptian sands. They recently found some really big carved granite (!) stones weighing an incredible 2 thousand tons! Even some of the columns and statues are several hundred tons apeice.
But it is the pots that get me. Perfectly made precision pots carved from solid stone. When they say perfect they mean carved within a few thou of being perfectly round. A few egyptologists have claimed to be able to replicate stone cutting as the Egyptians "must have done it" but none of the example pieces are anything like as accurate, nor do they replicate the particular "machining" marks of the originals.
Gareth J
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Seems like everyone is broadly in agreement to me. Darker objects reflect less energy back out into space than lighter ones. This has a noticeable effect on local areas of darker objects ("urban heat island") and as noted before is also seen in areas where there are lots of panels. Considering there is a small but non zero global area of panels (I too was surprised it was as much as 1/1000000th total area), there is likely to be a small but non zero net effect on climate temperatures too. Though I bet the details of it are mind boggling as everything climate is - with all its feedback loops thermodynamics and chemistry. Miranda's question is valid in my opinion. But I still think it'd be better to ask if displacing fossil fuels with solar is a net improvement rather than does solar cause some warming. I can't answer my question! But gut feeling is that releasing previously trapped energy (from fossil fuels) and its associated greenhouse gases will be overall more warming.
I'm with on this but some places say wind n solar anger is ugly to look at
MattF
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People will even bitch at their own shadow, if they've nowt else to complain about.
RWD3M
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I actually find these some of these big turbines not unattractive but I do struggle a little when I see agricultural land obscured by solar panels. Just doesn't seem right to me.
The energy the sun radiates onto the earth ( about 1KW per square meter) either gets radiated back as heat or light, as a solar panel turns the light portion of radiation into electricity which in turn does work that end up as heat which will also get radiated back into space unless stopped. Green house gases are what keeps the heat in if we did not have any the earth would be an ice ball but much and you have a steam bath and the greatest offender as a green house gas is water vapor.
So without the green house gases your solar pane will cause no extra warming but the manufacture of the silicon required to make them releases vast quantities of CO2. Silicon oxide plus coke heated makes pure silicon plus CO2. Whatever we do unless we go back to the stone age we will cause some global warming.
So without the green house gases your solar pane will cause no extra warming but the manufacture of the silicon required to make them releases vast quantities of CO2. Silicon oxide plus coke heated makes pure silicon plus CO2. Whatever we do unless we go back to the stone age we will cause some global warming.
Miranda
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But is radiation the same from gasses and from solid objects?
so we look at this pic.
Source energy education.ca
we stick in solar panels in the incoming radiation source ie the sun. There is another major player, if there are enough pv arrays, in the energy not reflected.
yes we use the energy and it is emitted into the atmosphere mostly as heat. Most of that will be trapped as shown in this diagram.
so we look at this pic.
Source energy education.ca
we stick in solar panels in the incoming radiation source ie the sun. There is another major player, if there are enough pv arrays, in the energy not reflected.
yes we use the energy and it is emitted into the atmosphere mostly as heat. Most of that will be trapped as shown in this diagram.
Screwdriver
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Most of the suns energy is absorbed by the atmosphere before it even reaches the ground, so even if we reflect it with a perfect mirror, it's not going to make much difference to the overall energy supplied by the sun. Secondly, PV arrays are not perfect mirrors, nor are they perfect transducers converting only 10% of the suns energy into an electric charge. The rest one assumes is either dissipated as heat or reflected back into the atmosphere.
I think the whole idea that a PV array can contribute significantly to the heat either absorbed or reflected by planet Earth is a non sequitur. It will be the same as any man made object, car roof, building, swimming pool etc. i.e. negligible.
I think the whole idea that a PV array can contribute significantly to the heat either absorbed or reflected by planet Earth is a non sequitur. It will be the same as any man made object, car roof, building, swimming pool etc. i.e. negligible.
Farside
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Have a read of Ringworld.
Miranda
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Ever heard of unintended consequences ? This would be catastrophic
Screwdriver
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An interesting website thanks but your conclusions are invalid for the reasons stated. The energy absorbed by a PV array is not "trapped" as much as you like to suggest there is something unusual happening. 10% at best of a PV array will convert that energy into electric charge but that will be re-released typically as heat and typically by some tree hugger with a Nissan Leaf driving to the next Extinction Rebellion party, I mean riot, err, demonstration...
There is a huge difference between that tiny amount of stored energy being "trapped"
for a few hours and burning fossil fuels which represents millions of years of capture and is being released in the blink of an eye as we speak.Finally you suggest it will be "trapped" because of PV arrays when your digram actually explains how this is in fact one aspect of a fantastically complicated process during which the atmosphere always plays a role in absorbing energy from the sun whether it bounces off a PV panel or is reflected off a car roof.
