All so called Natural Generation methods have consequences …

[sparkysy]

A lot of our build up of C02 has come from the appalling way we have treated our oceans and trees over the years, the sea is our biggest carbon sync and we have over fished polluted and ruined it, all in the pursuit of greed! That is the problem with our species, some of us want it all! But at what cost! Unfortunately money wealth and profit needs to die before we all do!

 

[Screwdriver]

A lot of our build up of C02 has come from the appalling way we have treated our oceans and trees over the years, the sea is our biggest carbon sync and we have over fished polluted and ruined it, all in the pursuit of greed! That is the problem with our species, some of us want it all! But at what cost! Unfortunately money wealth and profit needs to die before we all do!

Actually the primary mechanism for human sources of excess CO2 is burning fossil fuels, coal oil and natural gas at about 87%. Deforestation is responsible for another 9%.

The oceans are the biggest source for naturally occurring CO2 and they form an equilibrium with the CO2 in the atmosphere. The "emissions" from the oceans is two orders of magnitude higher than anything humans have ever done. The oceans naturally release CO2 into the atmosphere and absorb it in a constant cycle which has been finely balanced for thousands of years.

But while CO2 released by human activities is only a tiny amount compared to the natural cycle of CO2 in total, it is in excess of the amount this planet has evolved to maintain in equilibrium. We are filling up a vessel which is already full. The "spillover" (lit. "forcing") is the bit that is causing global warming.

 

[Kayos]

No, you're not wrong per say. As has been mentioned as most panels are very dark, they'll absorb more radiation than a whiter surface. They, in big expanses, will also "insulate" the earth from radiating some of its energy away to the night sky and reduce ground wind speeds. Resulting in local heat island effects.

Researchers discover solar heat island effect caused by large-scale solar power plants

Large-scale solar power plants raise local temperatures, creating a solar heat island effect that, though much smaller, is similar to that created by urban or industrial areas, according to a new study.

phys.org

However, as they are potentially displacing fossil fuels, despite the local heating they do they'll still result in a net reduction in heating. If they didn't exist, more fossil fuels would be dug up and their stored energy released to the atmosphere. On top of that, more CO2 added too.

Maybe we'll get smarter at utilising these effects. Imagine a solar array built on top of an inter seasonal heat store. At times of overproduction, the panels run heat pumps which cool the panels down (and make them more efficient in the process) and push heat underground into a heat bank - to be used come wintertime to heat our homes. None of that is a novel idea but it's hard to make such a project pay while fossil fuels remain cheap.

This is exactly what we are working on, taking the heat from panels to a heat pump, usually for hot water but it also helps the panels

 

[waddycall]

Too many people consuming too much stuff and even more so in the struggle to find ways of perpetuating it. Won’t happen. Something will wipe us out (recent near miss?) life on earth will be changed massively and one day the next intelligent life form to come along will be digging up our fossilised remains and wondering what wiped us out. End of. No further comments please
Edit - I put some emoticons on the end of that but they’ve disappeared!

 

[Gareth J]

This is exactly what we are working on, taking the heat from panels to a heat pump, usually for hot water but it also helps the panels

Cool. DX or via coolant? I imagine (but hopefully wrongly!) it's only at house scale currently? Particularly interested in inter seasonal heat storage - has to potential to really help the drawbacks of heat pumps and oversupply of renewable electricity when it's not required.

 

[Kayos]

Cool. DX or via coolant? I imagine (but hopefully wrongly!) it's only at house scale currently? Particularly interested in inter seasonal heat storage - has to potential to really help the drawbacks of heat pumps and oversupply of renewable electricity when it's not required.

We are looking at multiple heat sources to supplement the normal way of supplying the heat pumps, I suspect it will be via coolant but we are also looking at phase change technology as well

About the project - Energy Superhub Oxford

Energy Superhub Oxford (ESO) is a world-first project pioneering an integrated approach to decarbonising power, transport and heat to accelerate Oxford’s journey to zero carbon.

energysuperhuboxford.org

The shoebox link takes you to my employer

 

[8ob]

But while CO2 released by human activities is only a tiny amount compared to the natural cycle of CO2 in total, it is in excess of the amount this planet has evolved to maintain in equilibrium. We are filling up a vessel which is already full. The "spillover" (lit. "forcing") is the bit that is causing global warming.

There are some interesting and conflicting theories on this, some are convinced that high levels of CO2 trap heat from the sun that would normally bounce back into space, others believe that it actually diffuses the sun and protects us. When 911 kicked off in Urmerica and all aircraft were grounded aircraft contrails plummeted and record temperatures there were recorded,here we are again with a massive downturn in contrails due to Covid witnessing the same phenomenon over the entire planet. Some of this CO2 would appear to be protecting us

Bob

 

[Pete.]

Bob haven't you learned yet that theories are only theories for some people. Other people's theories are facts and the people who see them as only theories are wrong and too thick to understand the science that makes them facts not theories.

 

[Edward Teach]

Bob haven't you learned yet that theories are only theories for some people. Other people's theories are facts and the people who see them as only theories are wrong and too thick to understand the science that makes them facts not theories.

I would slow down with the insults,
Don't forget!
It's only YOUR OPINION,

Myself !
I do not have time for all this 'Save The Planet S*i*e'
The Human Race will die out, or move on one day,
Planet Earth will carry on and evolve,
End of.
Thank you for your time

 

[minimutly]

it’s fine to disagree. It’s not fine to ask others not to speak.

Too many people consuming too much stuff and even more so in the struggle to find ways of perpetuating it. Won’t happen. Something will wipe us out (recent near miss?) life on earth will be changed massively and one day the next intelligent life form to come along will be digging up our fossilised remains and wondering what wiped us out. End of. No further comments please
Edit - I put some emoticons on the end of that but they’ve disappeared!

There...

 

[slim_boy_fat]

.....we will eventually be doomed.

'fraid it's too late, we already are.

 

[Screwdriver]

There are some interesting and conflicting theories on this, some are convinced that high levels of CO2 trap heat from the sun that would normally bounce back into space, others believe that it actually diffuses the sun and protects us. When 911 kicked off in Urmerica and all aircraft were grounded aircraft contrails plummeted and record temperatures there were recorded,here we are again with a massive downturn in contrails due to Covid witnessing the same phenomenon over the entire planet. Some of this CO2 would appear to be protecting us

Bob

It is interesting to see some of these "conflicting" "theories". Unfortunately they also tend to conflict with some rather basic science without offering any actual science to back up their claims. There is no mechanism for CO2 to "bounce back" heat from the sun that I am aware of and the idea that it might "diffuse" the sun to "protect us" is too vague a suggestion.

Forgive me but "contrails" sounds a lot like some weird conspiracy theory which I ignore along with flat earth and aliens.

Does "diffused" sunlight not cause any warming? What happens to the greenhouse effect or is there some competing theory for that also? Other "opinions" are fine (unless it is regarding F1 it would seem) but for climate change discussions, I only translate my understanding of the science. These are not my "opinions".

Science is not a competition, nor does it require "belief", if there is a competing scientific theory out there I am all ears...

 

[fizzy]

All these weird and wonderful hybrid systems that may or may not help.
Germany puts out over 400 units of CO2. Britain 300 and France about 60. Its a no brainer but the anti nuclear lobby is too strong.
Trillions have been spent on renewable energy and it has barely made any difference

 

[Miranda]

'fraid it's too late, we already are.

Agreed. We just don’t know it yet.

 

[Miranda]

Having been looking over the last day, There are actually a number of peer reviewed scientific papers out there in internet land which have raised just this concern over solar when deployed on industrial scale upon the energy balances both local and terrestrial.

It is not “ loony off the wall stuff“ but is currently under serious study with competing arguments made.

One has to be aware that even though seemingly peer reviewed, there are very few totally independent studies…

It was a topic which crossed my mind whilst combining two days ago and looking across at acres and acres of ground under PV.

It wasn’t meant to generate ( ha ha ) angry polarised responses, it was more intended as a general thought provoker……

I haven’t yet mentioned wind/wave/tidal etc and their unintended consequences lol.

xx

 

[MattF]

It wasn’t meant to generate ( ha ha ) angry polarised responses, it was more intended as a general thought provoker……

Never apologise for your thoughts/opinion. Right or wrong, they're ours to have.

 

[Screwdriver]

Having been looking over the last day, There are actually a number of peer reviewed scientific papers out there in internet land which have raised just this concern over solar when deployed on industrial scale upon the energy balances both local and terrestrial.

It is not “ loony off the wall stuff“ but is currently under serious study with competing arguments made.

There is some merit to the argument that large PV arrays can and will produce highly localised affects. It certainly made me look at the issue. But with the man made interaction being so microscopically tiny at less than a millionth of the total "sunpower" available, I can't see how it has any negative effect on global warming or climate change.

It is still a lot bigger than I would have guessed (500Gw compared to 170,000 terawatts) but it is not only tiny, it also merely converts some of that captured irradiance into electrical energy which will eventually (fairly quickly) end up being dissipated as heat anyway.

 

[Wightsparks]

Every time I drive my PHEV on electricity generated by a solar cell, it’s trapped energy being released ( Ok so still technically batteries). .

I see your point and concern, but I think the key here is that it is "trapped" energy being released, as heat - As your car goes from A to B at B it has lost energy from it's batteries - that energy has been lost as heat, as at B nothing else has changed about the vehicle (ok you said PHEV but for the sake of discussion lets assume BEV)

If the sun had fallen on your roof it would have been stored as heat in the tiles then released when the surrounding air became cooler - in 12 hrs say. However if you use it to charge your car batteries and drive the next day, some heat is released immediately in the charging process and the rest is released when you drive - say 24hrs later.

As we all know, the issue is not the release of energy stored yesterday or even last week, but the the release of energy stored millions of years ago, especially when that energy is released by the exothermic reaction of sticking carbon and oxygen together.

 

[Pete.]

That's all you'll get though - local variances. Any sunlight which has reached the surface is already contributing to net energy input in some form or another. Whether its captured by solar panels or as someone mention the millions of miles of black-top tarmac or even the man-made reservoirs the effect is very small.

 

[mike os]

'fraid it's too late, we already are.

As dictated by real science... 2nd law ...