Anyone familiar with old Valiant boilers (butane)?

[gaz1]

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certificated gas installer caught bodging photos and video evidence

there is plenty of bodgers within the gas industry that fail to do there jobs correctly

ive caught a fair few of them and yes theyve been struck off

there own system fails badly and really isnt worth the paper its written upon

its start at there own system and sort out the crap within it

 

[Parm]

not applicable

certificated gas installer caught bodging photos and video evidence

there is plenty of bodgers within the gas industry that fail to do there jobs correctly

ive caught a fair few of them and yes theyve been struck off

there own system fails badly and really isnt worth the paper its written upon

its start at there own system and sort out the crap within it

See post 39

 

[Kayos]

Nope it doesn't need anti down draught, it has or should have draught diverter built into diverter hood fitted to the top of the boiler, outlet is 3 1/2 inch or there abouts, you get an adapter to go to std 90mm flue, if its in a position where fingers can touch should be twin wall, all irrelevant as its not going to happen.

As to the legality, legally you are not covered to work on your own gas appliances, this only ever becomes a problem when things go wrong.

In reality I know plenty of folk who are legally covered and shouldn't be and some that are not that are fine.


This pic is a boiler I was asked if I could fix, this was the exact state I found it in, a registered business got it to this state, couldn’t fix it and after being at it for 2hrs for the 3rd time the owner refused to let them continue.

View attachment 327106

The ops boiler is flueless

Adding a flue to it is absolute madness, modifying abs appliance way beyond its original spec

I stand by my first remark on it

 

[sg66]

The ops boiler is flueless

Adding a flue to it is absolute madness, modifying abs appliance way beyond its original spec

I stand by my first remark on it

It is until you fit the flue diverter that was made for it on and then fit a flue at which point it's not flue less any more.

I converted many, can't be arsed to dig out the regs but for a single point hand wash with no flue you were suppose to have a sign saying max 5mins use max, if it was connected to remote it had to have flue.

In the 70s and 80s there were thousands fitted with no flue, caravans and houses had a deflector to stop scorching caravans which at the time were a small box with very poor ventilation and remote taps ignored any advice and sold them like that, in correct operation with correct ventilation it's fine.

As I said before it's all pointless conjecture as it's not happening, you can stand by what you say.

 

[Screwdriver]

We have success !

The thermocouple was ok (the clue was I had a stable pilot light), I removed the water manifold and ran some water through into a bucket - the diaphragm moved and looked fine, I think the problem was the gas valve that the diaphragm operates - when I pressed the valve manually it was stiff the first time but moved more freely after that. When everything was put back together the main burner fired up as it should. The pilot got cleaned at the same time

@sg66 and @gaz1 the help is appreciated and made fixing the thing a whole lot easier that it would have been !

@Kayos fair comment and I'm expecting this to be removed sometime in April and used very little before then. It's been an interesting learning excercise which was the main reason for doing it

@Screwdriver afraid I'm nor sure how to take your comments, some sound like you're an experienced gas-safe engineer that thinks my system is dangerous, others sound more like you're an unqualified & untrained chap who works on their own gas system but isn't confident or qualifed.

Thanks everyone for the ideas and suggestions

Fair comment albeit somewhat unnecessary in this context. While, like you, I would be happy to service my own equipment, I have a limit beyond which I would not dare. I might twiddle with an older item as you say, just for kicks but they are fantastically dangerous being full of gas, electricity and (for good measure) water). I got a lot of flak from so called experts, one of whom didn't even know what a "combi" boiler actually is!

So long as you stay within your own comfort zone (is that seal gas tight, does my flame sensor work correctly etc.) then you'll be fine. Asking for help from random blokes on the internet is always going to be contentious (just mention earth spikes and see what happens). They invariably end up with people waving bits of paper in your face or saying "I've been doing this for 50 years"....

Anyhow, well played but also like you, I am not sure how to take your comment either. If there's a topic which I consider dangerous (IMHO) then I think it's only fair to flag it and you may ignore such warnings at your own peril. (There isn't much I wouldn't turn my hand to).

 

[Screwdriver]

@Nomad , just for fun have a look at this thread. https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/help-i-need-a-plumber.107576/

Similar situation but a fantastically negative response from a hostile audience. One of whom should have known better...

 

[sg66]

@Nomad , just for fun have a look at this thread. https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/help-i-need-a-plumber.107576/

Similar situation but a fantastically negative response from a hostile audience. One of whom should have known better...

Besides the fact that's not the best boiler in the world sorry I missed that, I was taught long ago remove any external controls if something is not doing what it's supposed to, fact that hot water wad working limits what was likely to be the issue.

 

[KemppiFrog]

At the risk of 'shave de fendas' calling into question my 50 yrs of experience ......These were the standard hot water systems in Portugal for much of my time there (and yes, the manual is from there)
Couple of comments: In hard water areas, they calcify up pretty quickly as the tubes are small. On the farm, we had to run acid through it (having taken the heat exchanger out) every month or so. The water there was VERY hard. After they get a bit clogged up, the flow is not enough to open the gas. They also make a crackling/fizzing noise if calcified.
If unused for a bit, the diaphram unit tends to stick. The water flow moves the diaphram (type of venturi) and pushes the brass pin opening the gas valve. Easy to clean without messing with the gas connection.
Cleaning the pilot jet was an occasional job, very fine and once in a blue moon the thermocouple failed.
Due to the number of monoxide poisonings, they were banned from bathrooms in the 70s. As above, you need a decent airflow into the room to avoid incomplete combustion. One solution was a sealed box vented to the outside. Or an outside cabinet.
Very popular, mainly because the electricity was very unreliable, or non existent out of towns. Even in the 80s, they used to turn it off if it rained and it was off every Sunday from 8 till 12 for 'maintenance' Cooking on gas was the norm too.

BTW, the burners make a good lead melting heat source and I once used a smaller one for a big oven to cook rack of lamb and roast pots for 80 at a wedding reception. In was nowhere near a kitchen and the guests were all served within a few minutes. One off, so the oven was roughly made from sheet and insulation draped over it, door a sheet, just hooked on the front.

Standard sizes were 5 and 11 liters. Small one for a kitchen sink, bigger for a shower.

 

[gaz1]

At the risk of 'shave de fendas' calling into question my 50 yrs of experience ......These were the standard hot water systems in Portugal for much of my time there (and yes, the manual is from there)

there actually still in use today found in many foreign holiday places

no warning signs of there uses and how to use them

might be banned here in uk but there not in other areas

 

[sg66]

Still lots of them kicking round Europe

 

[KemppiFrog]

there actually still in use today found in many foreign holiday places

no warning signs of there uses and how to use them

might be banned here in uk but there not in other areas

Coming back to this, the Sunday Times did an 'Expose' of the deaths in holiday places in the Algarve in the early 70s. Yes, they did have a problem back then, but not as bad as the UK with student bedsits (& others) Hence the reaction with stringent gas regs quite a long time ago.
On the farm in '75, a weekly customer for flowers was a delightful lady who had lost both her young sons to CO poisoning from a unit in the bathroom. Every week she placed flowers on their graves. He husband had been so affected by it he died soon after.
Along with ventilation regs on rented properties for kitchens and the heaters being banned from bathrooms, they mandated hard solder connections on the copper pipe and no joints or connections hidden in walls.
Near were I lived, there was restaurant that was being refurbed by a bunch of brits. I happened to be passing and noticed that the 'plumber' was soft soldering gas pipes in the walls. Said something to him and got a terse reply ' British standards, mate'. I was obliged to talk to the owners, who I knew well. Bit of an upset followed...

Another frightener, was being asked by a company that did fireplaces to look at an installation. I designed stuff for them and gave tech advice, but this was unusual. The gas fire went out without reason?? Looked a bit closer and the balanced flue had the exhaust blocked by the plaster on the outside wall... The joint to the fire inside was not sealed, so they were very lucky not to have been poisoned by CO. Bloke who had installed it was a Dutch expat and had left the country just before the complaint. Oh, and all the copper joints were soft soldered too. I reported and and left them to sort it out.. Did tell the owners to not touch it until sorted.

 

[gaz1]

the reference im aware of featured on holidays from hell i think

where uk visitors was carbon monoxide poisoning by the water heater in the bathroom either in aprtmant or via a hotel cant remember which

but i did recognise the water heater as one of the above

the family was lucky to survive they was so ill by the fumes

 

[sg66]

the reference im aware of featured on holidays from hell i think

where uk visitors was carbon monoxide poisoning by the water heater in the bathroom either in aprtmant or via a hotel cant remember which

but i did recognise the water heater as one of the above

the family was lucky to survive they was so ill by the fumes

I look after a holiday home for a woman who lost half her family to Co poisoning in Spain, to say she is paranoid would be a gross understatement (entirely understandable) was an old flued boiler.

 

[optima21]

yeah well if we're going to start talking about things in the past...... how about the baths they had in the late 1800's which had gas heaters underneath them, I guess a few people would have died from them at the time and no-one would have known how they died

Victorian & Edwardian Services (Houses) 1850-1914

 

[KemppiFrog]

yeah well if we're going to start talking about things in the past...... how about the baths they had in the late 1800's which had gas heaters underneath them, I guess a few people would have died from them at the time and no-one would have known how they died

Victorian & Edwardian Services (Houses) 1850-1914

Ummm, in the past, but in living memory as in the several people I knew that had problems with badly installed gas heaters. There have been some incidents in Greece not very long ago. Last four or five years?
Not sure where you are coming from?

 

[gaz1]

steam boilers still exist and they can be very dangerous

 

[Nomad]

steam boilers still exist and they can be very dangerous ...

I'd never heard of a steam radiator, and I thought I'd seen / used / been told about most odd systems. Educational stuff, thanks

 

[sg66]

I'd never heard of a steam radiator, and I thought I'd seen / used / been told about most odd systems. Educational stuff, thanks

Still popular in America, they help add moisture to the air in dry climates, still very much in use in old hotels, they are bloody noisy and do my head in, you just lay there waiting for the venting hiss.

 

[gaz1]

I'd never heard of a steam radiator, and I thought I'd seen / used / been told about most odd systems. Educational stuff, thanks

I always find it a chuckle when the younger plumbers with all there regs say they know the systems of central heating

its always the cast iron radiators that throw doubt into the mix as much as the old one pipe system

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/60003.pdf?gathStatIcon=true

2 pipe system

Steam Heating - system, overhead, expansion, fig, pipes, mills and returns

 

[gaz1]

as this has been referenced i will show the manual for it

https://doninstal.com/documentation/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BB%D1%8B%20Vaillant/%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8,%20%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%20%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BF%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B9/%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%B7/%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5%20%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B8%20MAG/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%20%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BF%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B9/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B5%20%D1%81%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3_%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BF%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B9_Atmo_MAG_125_250_325_400_7_8%28en%29.pdf

whilst the corvec britony is sealed it still uses roughly the same type of flue system whilst the corvec britony also preheats the incoming air whilst being fired

both heaters can be used on a site with no gas whilst one needs the room air to feed its burner
they are still well used in abroad locations when you take a holiday abroad and can be used in a barn reference with a good supply of air

the flue is like the corvec britony premade aluminium and just slides over the water heater jacket top and is clipped on at the sides
a flue can be made up for it but id advise using 5" as the corvec britony uses roughly 3-4" x 4-5" internal flue i can get measurements if needed but id still suggest a flue size of 5"