Arc Welders - Cheap vs Expensive

[scarecrow]

It is certainly an interesting subject for a debate, and one that might be best given it's own thread rather than distributed around various "which welder to buy" threads.

very interesting subject indeed and it probably seams to George the we are all against cheap ark welders it's not that they don't do the job but the more expensive ones are easier to weld with I have a 260amp air cooled ark welder
about €400 worth which isn't really that expensive but probably looks expensive beside his and it's not the nicest machine it the world to weld with that's why I spent a couple of hundred converting it to dc the difference it is phenomenal especially at the lower amps I'm sure George welder works fine and their probably isn't any difference between his and mine laying down the same size Rod on ac but ark is far too harsh for light material but the bigger the Rod the easier it is to weld with ac and that's more or less why
we are against the smaller ac sets
But I would gladly have one instead of a bag of cold and a hammer

 

[GeorgeB]

BillJ, Scarecrow, Snowcat, Archie.Henderson, Shenion, Knoba, Scarecrow, et al

Thank you for making some very good points, many of which I agree with, and all of which I welcome. I hope it helps scraggydog64 make a good choice. I'd love to respond with a few follow-up, clarification type question but I'd better not, as it seems to be frowned upon!

 

[snowcat]

I'm sure George the question wouldn't be frowned upon in a different thread, or maybe even If the mods did a bit of tidying, and placed some of the non relevant answers to the original posters question, in there own thread......

 

[Wozzaaah]

Just to add my tuppence worth to this thread: A few years ago I was given a 'Solarc' 140A buzzbox and learnt to stick weld with it. It was a reasonable machine to use but had no forced cooling so the duty cycle was atrocious. In a moment of madness I bought a Clarke 190E from MM on one of their 'VAT free' days then gave the Solarc to a mate. Quite honestly, the Clarke is a pile of poo, rods are difficult to strike and control, it's noisy and the weld appearance isn't a patch on that Solarc.
Since I've bought the Clarke I've bought a Rehmann DC inverter and that p***es all over both the solarc and the clarke in all aspects. Rods which I can't use on the Clarke are now easy to use and the arc is smooth and almost silent. The only machine I've got which can hold a candle to the Rehmann is my Miller Dialarc but at nearly 1/4 tonne it's not particularly portable .

 

[scarecrow]

By all means George Fire away with any questions or comments at worst we will get moderated to the new tread or maybe even a padded cell for arkies

 

[GeorgeB]

scarecrow, English Steve and others

I find this kind of debate (above) useful but perhaps some people don't agree and, if they have the final say, I'm on a hiding to nothing. I hope at least a few others agree with me. If more questions and challenges are put, then the responses should tell people something on the pros and cons of each type of welder and whether a dirt cheap welder is worth thinking about. If the thread, meanders off the original question a bit, so what, as it should soon wander back. I would see a 'new thread' as an attempt to shunt the toy town arc debate into a siding where its less likely to be read. I've taken the hint, so unless we get official clearance to start things up again, without interference, then I'll stay out of it!

Someone on another thread recently made a reference to cheap Chinese inverters as some kind of junk. I have one of those too, and am delighted with it, so I'd like to comment on that subject, also, but I won't.

 

[Archie]

Georgie. As I understand it you've put forward a case that cheap welders (specifically arc) get a bum rap and are, in some cases, a good alternative to a more expensive inverter welders or MIG welders. Others, myself included, have expressed the opinion that cheapo welders are not much cop and that people would be better off spending the extra on something of better quality. There's also been some discussion of the differences between cheap and expensive models which has generated some good points about transformer design, the merits of DC and AC and duty cycle.

I feel I can say with absolute certainty that no one here minds people asking questions. There are some questions that are a bit daft and there are those that get asked over and over again, but they are always answered. However, in my opinion, the reason this thread has a slightly mutinous undertone is because of your initially combative style and slightly roundabout way of actually asking questions. Of course I realise that the written word does lead to misunderstandings since tone and facial-expression are not conveyed but the point stands. I'm not trying to be argumentative, overly critical or an otherwise bad-tempered old sod but I think you would have been best off asking your questions first, before telling the member with the third most posts on this site that you 'completely disagree' with him in such an upfront manner.

Obviously you feel fairly strongly that your welder is a goodun. Having no idea which yours is I can't comment on it directly however, I stick by my belief that you get what you pay for (most of the time!). Over the years I've made a fair few purchases and some of them have been better than others. My last printer, for example, cost me £30. It's worked for the last 5-6 years totally satisfactorily but I would never deny that a)it's pretty poorly built, b) the printouts aren't great quality and c) it's slow. I knew that all along but it did what I needed it to do and I was happy with it. However it recently broke and I bought a more expensive one to replace it. Needless to say, it's a revelation and better in every way.

The same is probably true of your welder. If you're happy with the performance it offers then there's no need to buy a more expensive one but be prepared to discover that your welder is fairly limited. It's AC only and the disadvantages of this have been discussed already. It like as not has a shocker of a duty cycle. As you have said, this could probably be improved to some extent by addition of a better cooling mechanism but it's never going to be awesome. Call me sceptical but I still don't believe that the build quality is that great. Admittedly I haven't seen it but for £19 it's not going to be made of top-quality materials. Myself? I would usually always buy the biggest and best I could afford at the time with the view that it'll probably last longer and it will have the capability to do more should I ever need to push it that extra mile. Of course, this does lead to the sticky situation when I realise just how much I've spent and have to start justifying it to myself! Fortunately, I'm easily convinced!!!

If you would like to know more about anything welding or even vaguely mechanically-related then this is one of the best places for it. There's a wealth of info here and a great many people who are more than willing to help. So long as we don't start swearing at each other, I'm sure this thread can continue! Over and out.

 

[wallopadonkey]

I've taken the cover off my £19 arc welder, let alone £50. Brand new too, albeit a special offer. All it's made of is:

1. A steel core for the transformer. I'm no expert on transformer design but it looks perfectly adequate to me. I don't see how paying more would get a better core. It's just a lump of metal plates.

2. The wire which is wound around the core. This is well insulated and looks high quality. The pure physics mean the wire has to be a certain diameter and it is. I don't see how paying more would get better wire or insulation.

3. A heat sensitive trip switch. I can't tell the quality of this, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't up to the job and it would be low cost to replace in the highly unlikely event that it should ever fail.

4. The main power switch. This looks perfectly adequate to me. I'd be amazed if it ever failed and, even if it did, it would be easy and cheap to replace.

5. The fan. This is a standard, good quality-looking fan. I wouldn't pay a penny more for a better one.

I was the main winner with this arc welder. I'd only pay more if I needed a current over about 130 amps.

The main losers must be everyone in the supply chain. How can anyone have made anything? It was almost like a free gift. In this case I didn't just get what I paid for. I got a lot more.

In conclusion, I totally disagree with your comment that low cost arc welders are "toy-town & not up to the job".

i am new on here and although i am not a great welder (excellent grinder though) i can see a little of georges' point.
it could maybe have been put with more tact and or diplomacy however i feel he is trying to make is that for cash paid he is willing to take the quality of it as a bargain, as it works (in that it will join 2 pieces of metal together) the way it does it may be splattery and it may have to take many rests on its way (poor duty cycle) but if he just wants to do a little bit in the garden the point becomes how does a £19 transformer based arc welder differ from a £300 arc welder?
his simplification of the parts installed although a little brusque, makes a the point of HOW do you improve on the items listed and at which point does it make a difference to the majority of us
i work on the idea that i should buy the best i can afford,

i may become a whizz at welding and i may not, however i never ever believe that your limiting factor should be the quality of your equipment
i buy a bottle of brandy from tesco for £19.86 within the week it is gone!
he will still have his welder and if he fixes one exhaust with it it has paid for itself.
i asked on here which welder to buy and i was going to buy a wolf one from aldi for £99 i got a response from someone who sells welders for a living (weldequip) his price was very fair, his advice has been spot on and i trust the other members of the forum.
yes! he is in business to sell welders. hey ho. so are halfords selling sip, so are machine mart selling clarke as well as all the other places selling sealey. however they cannot tell you anything about them at all most seem unable to give basic information actual amps etc.
I cannot afford by a long way one of the portamig / esab / butters machines of this world as much as i would of loved one, it is going to take me a long time to outgrow this one i have.
the original poster (whom we must not forget) a farmer i believe wants his £500 to buy him something to last a long time and be reliable for welding tractors, fences and anything else he needs to do as and when he needs to.


i am sorry george b a £19 aldi special aint gonna do that for him!!

never mind 2 pence worth have a cpl quid

 

[snowcat]

I think the crux of the problem is, George seams to have crowbarred his cheepy wolf welder into a number of posts, If your happy with it then fine, but it does seam as if you have to justify to us all, the old hands on here, do know the difference between an A/C buzz box and a high end machine,..... I have some really naff DIY tools an electric plainer I bought for £4 from makro, It hung all the doors in my house, however I wouldn't tell a cabinet maker it was the dogs danglers because clearly its not.....

The whole thing puzzles me a tad, because I feel George thinks that us who use the tools day in day out, really don't know what were talking about, I am sure Chinese stuff is fine at a DIY level (and a year or so ago a few of us did our best to stop threads becoming tit for tat arguments about the merits of Chinese stuff, It just became well ermmmm boring) and Id never suggested that everyone should buy a Forunis so why would you think a cheepy arc is suitable for all.

 

[GeorgeB]

temporary thread

So the machine in question, is that about the right pric?.

By chance or whatever it's exactly the same price as a 160 amp model sold by ToolStation:

http://www.toolstation.com/search.html?searchstr=arc+welder

I doubt if the 160 amp model will go down as low in current amp terms, as the 100 amp model, so if you are interested in trying your luck with thinner metal, I'd buy the 100 amp toolstation arc welder and save yourself £26. P&P is free, too for any order over £10.

If higher current is of more interest, for thicker metal, then I'd buy the 160 amp model from toolstation.

 

[snowcat]

I'm sorry but I find myself disagreeing with you again!

1. My arc welder is specified for 13 amp use. I've used it on maximum current for several minutes, several times and it's never yet blown a fuse.

unlikely most pull over 13 amps, even my oldest Inverter pulls around 15 at 180amps, the newer ones dont, stick a rod with an A/C buzz box and it will blow.......

2. I've used that arc welder on rods from 1.6mm to 4mm (larger than specified) and it works well on all rods, at least for what I'm trying to do, which is not professional work, or an exam class.

4mm you would have poor pen or inclustions..... which coded work or not its still not ideal, all rods what lo-his? 6011s???? nope your talking standard 6013s there....

3. As previously mentioned here, I've had some early success on using the arc welder to join thin sheet and, the more I practice, the easier it's getting. I'm not saying it's better than a MIG welder for thin sheet but I am saying it is possible.

theres a limitation to the thickness and very thin becomes extreamly hard to get a sound weld its a balance between blowing holes, and getting inclustions, Iv done plenty in me time on old oil filed quasis running 100OCV (now ilegal) which will give twice the control of a little air cooled...... times have moved on..... even with arc welding, i would never buy a machine with a transformer these days, only a very large TIG

 

[GeorgeB]

righto. I suppose the next question is, does anyone know of a fairly reasonable and well priced stick inverter I don't know what brands to choose (I'm a stahwille or snap-on man usually) because this is a new industry to me.

I'm concerned to see that you're being persuaded, against your initial, own judgement to go for a DC inverter over a simple, AC arc welder.

1. There's no way an inverter will last as long as a transformer-based arc welder, as long as both are reasonably well looked after. Anybody who says different must have an interest in selling and/or repairing inverters. The inverters are a mass of complex electronics with so much to go wrong. An inverter will work out much more expensive. Which type of inverter would they suggest? A £150 Chinese type? I doubt it, so perhaps it looks more like £300 and that might last 3 years if you are lucky. Therefore, it might cost £100 per year. Repair will never be economic outside of the warranty period. By comparison, a £45 arc welder could easily last 10 years. The cost is therefore closer to £4.50 per year.

2. A cheap transformer based arc welder, such as the smallest one at ToolStation is likely to be ideal for the practice you seek. It's so cheap, why not give it a try?

3. I have both a DV inverter (albeit a Chienese one) and an AC arc welder. I prefer the AC for steel.

 

[knoba]

Getting a really good set-up gives one a real head start. I'm not only learning basic things, with my inverter, (eg. names) but more advanced stuff too (processes / techniques) that I would never learn on an old ark welder (I have an old Trojan 140 somewhere...).

I'm completely independent, and a hobbyist, but I do think good education is worth encouraging and worth the costs! There's no point denying that inverters are part of the future, but, it was that old Trojan 140 that first got me started 30 yrs ago.

 

[snowcat]

I'm concerned to see that you're being persuaded, against your initial, own judgement to go for a DC inverter over a simple, AC arc welder.

1. There's no way an inverter will last as long as a transformer-based arc welder, as long as both are reasonably well looked after. Anybody who says different must have an interest in selling and/or repairing inverters. The inverters are a mass of complex electronics with so much to go wrong. An inverter will work out much more expensive. Which type of inverter would they suggest? A £150 Chinese type? I doubt it, so perhaps it looks more like £300 and that might last 3 years if you are lucky. Therefore, it might cost £100 per year. Repair will never be economic outside of the warranty period. By comparison, a £45 arc welder could easily last 10 years. The cost is therefore closer to £4.50 per year.

2. A cheap transformer based arc welder, such as the smallest one at ToolStation is likely to be ideal for the practice you seek. It's so cheap, why not give it a try?

3. I have both a DV inverter (albeit a Chienese one) and an AC arc welder. I prefer the AC for steel.

quite frankly much of that is complete Bo110ks, I have no Axe to grind and offer advice as I see fit I DO NOT or HAVE NOT ever sold repaired/hired any kind of equipment of any sort, I have no vested interest and get nothing back for offering advice, hopefully much of it is useful, I have been engineering and welding since my school years, and have received formal education in both welding and engineering, also holding the odd coding....... I'm not trying to push the OP in any direction the only poster in this thread trying that is you, the reason forum members pushed the OP away from the welders mentioned was the crap specs or lack of any at all...

I mentioned inverters only as an option, and the things you have outlined as facts about inverters are untrue, my first from the early 1990s lasted me 10 years I only killed it by spiking it with a Genny (there all generator safe now) and that was being used for heavy construction and steel fixing..... certain brands have 3 years warranty on em now, thats how sure of the durability they are and thats for daily use, " last 3 years if your lucky" pishhh...........

If you want something cheep and decent but don't want to move it then a 1PH oxford/pickenhill oil cooled, would be a better option, theres no issues on duty cycle, and will outlast just about anything, will also give a smooth arc, also an 80OVC.....and can be picked up for chips on ebay......

Theres little point in outlining the problems with cheep buzzboxs because you've listened to F/A that anyone has said on the subject over the last couple of months, If the OP doesn't want to spend much, then its his money and his life, however machines are not priced on what the weathers doing, and as a rule the more you spend the better it is.....I mealy say as I see and as iv mentioned, there is only one poster, pushing the OP in one particular dirrection.......

I have no idea why you want to weld with A/C unless your pulling over 200amps and want to stop blow, but the more green your welding experience appears.......I have no objection to anyone learning, but please don't try and tell some of us with many years in the trade how to do our jobs......

 

[GeorgeB]

quite frankly much of that is complete Bo110ks,
...you've listened to F/A that anyone has said on the subject over the last couple of months...please don't try and tell some of us with many years in the trade how to do our jobs......

I made it very clear that I'm expressing a viewpoint only from a DIY perspective, so there's no way I'm trying to tell any trader how to do their job. I find your bad language unacceptable and ask for it to be removed. You used two words which you know are unacceptable and deliberately mis-spelled them, as if it makes a difference.

The OP can choose who he wants to believe. Chances are he may believe you and waste a lot of money.

 

[matt1978]

The OP can choose who he wants to believe. Chances are he may believe you and waste a lot of money.

George, its not a point of some people on here trying to coax Jef into buying somethin or not! There are few members on here myself included who are involved in the trade in a profesional basis.

Any advice given on that basis is given with many collective years experience in mind. People like Snowy etc wouldn't benefit either way on what machine Jef (or anyone else) decides to buy or not, so your comments basically implying that if he doesn't believe you, then he would be wasting his money are frankly rubbish !

Its no secret that I do work for a manufacturer and it could be construed that I do have something to be personally benefited if Jef was to purchase a Lorch machine. Thats is of course true, but any advice I ever give on this forum is based on my experience of a time served welder, not as a sales rep. Also to be blunt, to echo what Snowy and others have said, the reason they are steering him away from the machine which he asked for advice on, is because it looks like a pile of pants! Very low duty cycles and misleading information on the write up of the machine............which to be fair I don't think is done on purpose, but because the company selling the product don't appear to have a great deal of knowledge regarding the machine or the process.

No one has said that Transformer based MMA sets are bad! Just that, that particular one, although cheap, is not a good example of a good buzzbox.

 

[GeorgeB]

George, its not a point of some people on here trying to coax Jef into buying somethin or not! There are few members on here myself included who are involved in the trade in a profesional basis.

You make some good points even if we look at the situation differently.

>the reason they are steering him away from the
>machine which he asked for advice on, is
>because it looks like a pile of pants!

These machines are so simple , by design, I don't see how there's much to go wrong. I think the smaller Toolstation arc welder at £45 may be very similar to mine. The Toolstation unit does 45-100 amps and will join quite thick metal. I joined two 12mm rebar rods, for example. At that price, I suggest there's little to lose. I see it as good for learning, and more. If duty cycle is an issue, the OP could add an extra fan. I don't know what one has to pay for an inverter expected/designed to last 10 years and I dread to think. That's in the realm of professional gear, with prices to match.

>No one has said that Transformer based MMA sets
>are bad! Just that, that particular one, although
>cheap, is not a good example of a good buzzbox.

OK, I suggested the £45 Toolstation one. If you don't like the look of that, which units would you suggest, which might have better build quality, duty cycle or whatever?

 

[malcolm]

I've combined a number of posts discussing the differences between cheap and expensive arc welders into a single thread.

This is for 2 reasons:

1/ There is information that may be useful to other members.

2/ I do not wish for 'which welder to buy' threads to be taken over by arguments for and against very cheap arc welders as this rarely helps the thread starter.

From here:

This thread is for discussion about cheap arc welders and the differences between these and expensive arc welders. Please discuss the topic in this thread.

If you feel the topic might be relevant to discussions on another thread please link here. Such discussion in other threads will be deleted or moved here by moderators.

 

[JW240]

You make some good points even if we look at the situation differently.

>the reason they are steering him away from the
>machine which he asked for advice on, is
>because it looks like a pile of pants!

These machines are so simple , by design, I don't see how there's much to go wrong. I think the smaller Toolstation arc welder at £45 may be very similar to mine. The Toolstation unit does 45-100 amps and will join quite thick metal. I joined two 12mm rebar rods, for example. At that price, I suggest there's little to lose. I see it as good for learning, and more. If duty cycle is an issue, the OP could add an extra fan. I don't know what one has to pay for an inverter expected/designed to last 10 years and I dread to think. That's in the realm of professional gear, with prices to match.

>No one has said that Transformer based MMA sets
>are bad! Just that, that particular one, although
>cheap, is not a good example of a good buzzbox.

OK, I suggested the £45 Toolstation one. If you don't like the look of that, which units would you suggest, which might have better build quality, duty cycle or whatever?

one thing that makes it possible to make cheaper MMA buzzboxes is to use aluminium instead of copper on the secondary side of the transformer. The aluminium conducts the heat better for a given amount of material so they can use thinner wires/strands, but the efficiency goes down a bit. Once the whole transformer is hot it takes some time to cool it down again.

There can be difference in the quality of the insulation and connectors etc. im not saying it is inadequate, but i dont think it would stand up as well against heavy use day in day out. Not that the OP was looking for such a machine.

My first welder was a 30 euro (second hand) buzzbox from Einhell (140A max). worked great for my application, but even on startup it could trip a fuse (have 25A installed here so no issues, but when i used it on other locations the fuse could trip). I welded a lot of stuff with it and had a lot of fun. Even with the relatively poor duty cycle i could do my small welding projects.

inverters have served me well. have 3 now and not one single problem in the last 3 years.

 

[Drains]

Wow. Great thread chaps!

George, you're a difficult old cuss arn't you? (not a bad thing, IMO)

If I may butt in re little arc welders vs oil cooled vs inverters etc etc... (although I might be jumping on a bandwagon that's long gone here...)

Small, cheap arc welders are great value for money at £19 odd, BUT, the rubbish duty cycles do mean that running anything bigger than a 2.5mm 6013 rod is a pain. Duty cycles btw are improved less by cooling (as archie says, it may not be so easy to add cooling, particularly as adding a fan in series will not increase the quantity of air passed - it must be added in parallel to do that, unless you are trying to overcome system pressure), but by de-rating the plant - eg a bigger set rated at a relatively lower maximum amperage output.

Also, a basic low end transformer and choke will not give the best arc control, not the best finish, and may well not give a quality weld with good fusion etc etc. You have only to try using a better plant to see what the difference can be. Snowcats argument over types of rods that can be used is also valid. A 48v OCV AC set will not run much of a range...

George's old welder friend who doesn't like using DC on steel is talking, frankly, claptrap. Sorry George, but he is wrong. I know it can be infuriating when people say things like that, particularly when it is opinion, and we are all entitled to ours, but it doesn't make us right, and he is not. Why you also prefer ac over dc for steel I do not know, other than the possibility that the rods you use don't run well on DC, which would be unusual, to say the least.
Running a dc weld off a few car batteries in series is much nicer than the weld most buzz boxes give.

The advice given re agricultural welding and buying a better-than-an-aldi-set, is good. An oxford/pickhill oil-cooled set would be by far the best and economic (though not the lightest) solution.

Personally, I don't like using ac buzz boxes with moveable core transformers as they are a PITA when it comes to changing the current, and constant current adjustment is vital if you are going to do consistently good quality welds, unless you are repeating the same weld position again and again. Welders with clicky knobs (technical term), such as old-fashioned buzz-boxes, or oil cooled sets, are much better, and generally no more expensive, They last too. Expect 40-years and more...

DC power supplies are particularly nice though, not least as one has the choice between DCEN and DCEP, which can be extremely useful, depending on the thickness of material, type of rod, type of weld.

BUT, after all that, there is nothing wrong, in theory, with the budget weld set. It does a job, at great value for money. It probably beats the cheap and nasty inverter which looks good, but has lots to go wrong, and will.