Arc Welders - Cheap vs Expensive

[GeorgeB]

Wow. Great thread chaps!.

And a great response from you, if I may say so. You raise some excellent points.

>Small, cheap arc welders...rubbish duty cycles
>do mean that running anything bigger than a
>2.5mm 6013 rod is a pain.

Yes, mine started to cut out whilst on maximum and it takes a good couple of minutes to come back on, so it wouldn't be practical for professional or big project work.

>Duty cycles btw are improved less by cooling

I will play around with extra fans sometime and see if it brings about any improvement in practice. I guess a golden rule might be to use any arc welder at only about half its maximum output, so it's operating well within its rated capacity.

>Also, a basic low end transformer and choke
>will not give the best arc control

I'm fairly sure my arc welder doesn't even have a choke. It seems to be a single large transformer block, and very little else!

>You have only to try using a better plant to
>see what the difference can be.

I look forward to trying that someday and perhaps I'll be pursuaded. The other alternative might be to modify mine somehow, e.g. by adding a choke if you think that might help. I already intend to modify it to drive down the minimum current whilst increasing the voltage.


>Snowcats argument over types of rods that
>can be used is also valid.

I've only used 6013 rods. What should I try next, would you suggest?

>George's old welder friend who doesn't like using
>DC on steel is talking, frankly, claptrap. Sorry
>George, but he is wrong.

You might be right. He's retired now and means well. I guess his main welding period was in the 1970s. He simply turned his nose up when he saw my DC inverter and said it was not good for steel. I then found that the AC transformer unit did seem to produce better results but perhaps I'll go back and look at the DC inverter more carefully after the various suggestions here. Also, it's only a low cost Chinese inverter so perhaps that makes a difference, also.

>Why you also prefer ac over dc for steel I
>do not know, other than the possibility
>that the rods you use don't run well on DC,
>which would be unusual, to say the least.

Striking the arc was much easier with the inverter until I learned the knack with the transformer so that's now a score draw.

Secondly, and the main reason I bought the inverter, is that the current will go much lower and this is of interest in trying to go against the odds and weld thin sheet with the arc rod. In the light of your comments, I will go back and re-assess everything.

>Running a dc weld off a few car batteries
>in series is much nicer than the weld most
>buzz boxes give.

Thank you for this suggestion. Do you need anything other than about 4 car batteries, to get up to about 50 volts? But isn't the current too high and likely to blow holes, even in 2mm or 3mm plate?

>An oxford/pickhill oil-cooled set would be by
>far the best and economic (though not the
>lightest) solution.

I may look out for one of these too, to see what they're like. But aren't they AC, like mine - just oil cooled and heavier duty?

>PITA when it comes to changing the current, and
>constant current adjustment is vital if you are
>going to do consistently good quality welds

Thank you for this tip, also. I knew about current adjustment for TIG but I didn't know it was done for arc welding.

>Welders with clicky knobs (technical term)

Do you mean they avoid the need for a movable core by having various windings, or resistors or something?

>budget weld set. It does a job, at great value for money.
>It probably beats the cheap and nasty inverter which
>looks good, but has lots to go wrong, and will.

My inverter is guaranteed for 3 years and I only intended to use it on low current settings in the hope it will be under less strain. For anything heavier, I intended to use the transformer unit. But it only cost about £50, so I have little to lose and look forward to trying 'entry level' TIG.

 

[mishka]

Hi,

(long time no post - busy life )

Yes, mine started to cut out whilst on maximum and it takes a good couple of minutes to come back on, so it wouldn't be practical for professional or big project work.

Also, if you're using the largest rods the machine can handle you're going to be spending most of your time drinking tea

I will play around with extra fans sometime and see if it brings about any improvement in practice. I guess a golden rule might be to use any arc welder at only about half its maximum output, so it's operating well within its rated capacity.

Duty cycle is fundamentally linked to thermal cycle. Its a matter of how well the transformer is at getting waste heat out from the core and getting rid of it - a fan will certainly help, but there is a limit. Generally, the physically larger a transformer is the better will be its duty cycle as there's more metal (in the transformer core) to heat up.

I'm fairly sure my arc welder doesn't even have a choke. It seems to be a single large transformer block, and very little else!

If it is one of these cheapy jobs then you simply have a variable linkage transformer. You adjust the current by adjusting a huge gap in the core, introducing more or less inductance into the transformer. Its a cheap way to add an inductor into the circuit - the older oil-cooled (and some air-cooled) transformer welders have a separate inductor for current control, either tapped or variable-gapped.

I look forward to trying that someday and perhaps I'll be pursuaded. The other alternative might be to modify mine somehow, e.g. by adding a choke if you think that might help. I already intend to modify it to drive down the minimum current whilst increasing the voltage.

You use chokes on DC, inductors (or ballasts or reactors) on AC. With a cheap buzz-box there's not that much you can do with them.

If you were making your own AC/DC rectifier box then its certainly worth putting a choke on the output; you can even buy them, for example: 100A - 300A Reactor

Based on my own experience, and from reading others' experiences on this site, when learning it really helps if you have access to quality machines and quality rods. Otherwise you're learning from poor quality tools and materials, which can make it all the more frustrating.

On the other hand, an experienced welder, if forced to use one of these cheap welders, will understand its limitations and adjust his/her technique to ensure adequate control of the weld-pool.

Another example, there was a thread some time ago from another beginner about welding rods - one conclusion was that as soon as they tried quality branded rods his weld quality improved instantly.

I've only used 6013 rods. What should I try next, would you suggest?

Better quality 6013s? Try some Murex, ESAB or Oerlikon.

>An oxford/pickhill oil-cooled set would be by
>far the best and economic (though not the
>lightest) solution.

I may look out for one of these too, to see what they're like. But aren't they AC, like mine - just oil cooled and heavier duty?

Yes, they're AC as well. But a much better quality of transformer, and oil-cooled, and higher open-circuit voltage. I've got a small 110A Oxford, lovely little welder, 100% duty cycle at all current settings. It also goes up to 80V OCV, suitable for smaller rods on thinner material as it can go down to around 20A. I've managed to weld some pretty thin steel (0.8mm) with 1.6mm 6013 rods with it.

>Welders with clicky knobs (technical term)

Do you mean they avoid the need for a movable core by having various windings, or resistors or something?

Movable core is one way - tapped inductors is another way. Certainly no resistors involved!

And if you really want an interesting approach - tapped secondary: I have an old air-cooled welder (proper one, 100% duty cycle, damn heavy) that has a tapped secondary - lower voltage taps have fewer turns, so lower inductance and hence higher current output, and vice-versa. The lowest current tap (65A) is around 90V

So, to conclude this rather rambling post, cheap buzzboxes are just that. As long as you realise and accept their limitations they are fine. Certainly for a beginner do not expect the kind of performance and quality you would get from a higher-spec machine. And as for inverter welders, they are now mainstream for professional on-site welders - as long as you buy a known brand (e.g. Eutectic) then for a home/hobby user you should be looking at many years of reliable operation.

Thanks for the interesting thread!

 

[HasBean]

I'm on the fence here but my ha'penny worth.......

Had a 150A AC buzz box, found it a nightmare after having used a big Oxford at evening classes 10 years ago.
Didn't do any welding for about 9 years (kids etc)

Gave buzz box to brother-in-law after I got an IFL inverter for silly money.
Found the inverter is a revelation and has actually managed to make me able to stick 2 bits of steel together!!!!
Having said that I found that at evening classes using AC on the tig inverter was easier than DC for stick!!
Now finding that DC is easier
After mucho practice I'd say that spending a few hundred quid on a good inverter is the way to go.
Again this is just my opinion.

Paul

 

[scarecrow]

Problem for most DIYers is that it's hard to justify spending large amounts of cash on machines that aren't used daily and end up buying cheap welders and other machines which take a high skill level to get decent results from on a regular basis and end up just blaming themselves and getting frustrated and probably giving up which is a pity the ones that persist probably end up on a forum trying to figure out where there are going wrong if you look through a lot of the posts where people are getting crappy welds a lot of the time it has to do with the machine and that would be my main reason for trying to get someone to spend more money on the machine

 

[jugs]

George I’ve been reading this Thread with astonishment, you do have a way with words that manages to get people worked up, well done, its great to have a lively debate going (free speech & all that ).


From my humble experience you do get what you pay for, most cheap thing work but not very well & not for long.
We have all seen spanners that bend (but not before damaging the special bolt) Saucepans that buckle when you heat them, Paint that flakes off after 9 mths, Shoes that fall apart if you wear them, 'Value sausages' with 6% meat, Beef-burgers that contain no beef…….

You extoled the virtues of a cheap Aldi ACBuzzbox and that may be fine for a welding god, but remember lesser mortals like me & most members don’t have that skill & experience. We need to rely on technology to help us out, why else would Millions be wasted every year developing new tricks to part us from our cash, like Voltage stabilisation, constant current, HF start etc.


I started welding 45yrs ago with an oil cooled Oxford AC
I’ve also used…..
Cheap AC buzz boxes- Difficult for vertical, overhead, thintin & tacking. OK for short runs till it overheats.
Expensive AC buzz boxes- Difficult for vertical, overhead, thintin & tacking. OK for long runs till it overheats.
Big (domestic fridge size) DC units- Expensive, Perfect welds all pos.

I now have MIG (brill), TIG Inverter(absolutly wonderfull), & a AC buzzbox...... I often use the buzzbox as a door stop (cos it aint much good for welding!)

 

[aero]

My view is I've thrown 2 cheap machines in the skip before now. Not because they were broken, just beacause I finally got annoyed with waiting for then to cool off or tinkering about trying to coax the damn things back into life, and it wouldn't have been worth the effort to attempt to sell them.

I've got myself a nice old Oxford off e-bay, £90 delivered to my door. My first experience of arc welding was with one of these and it was good to know that it was me making mistakes and not the machine getting overheated and causing poor weld quality!

I've used a few cheapy stick welders since, most work OK for a while, but can't be compared to a proper professional welding set. Its like the difference between a Lada and a Big ole Merc.

If I ever get annoyed with the Oxford taking up space I'll always be able to sell it for what I paid, maybe more. Try that with an Aldi set!

 

[GeorgeB]

Does its performance justify the size and weight involved?

I'd have said - "Does its performance justify the size and weight and cost involved?"

I normally take cost into account but, whilst expensive new, I've seen them go for quite reasonable prices on eBay when in quite tatty condition, but reported as still working, or a bit more when fully reconditioned.

Like it's your only consideration George! I fear you are now about to tell us that your £15 buzz box & £5 car boot attachment will perform equally as good as a legend in Arc welding equipment?
weldequip

I've quoted the above exchanges from a current thread about Oxford Arc Welders. I thought I'd reply on this thread, rather than risk being accused of spoiling anyone else's thread.

The title of this thread mentions cheap vs expensive arc welders. I'd put secondhand Oxford arc welders in the cheap category as in great value, too. From what I've heard, you're getting a lot for the money at secondhand prices. All I was checking, is whether the weight and size is worth accommodating for whatever performance they deliver.

I never treat cost as my only consideration. If you read my first post on the Oxford welder (as repeated above) I think you can tell that I was being reasonably pro-Oxford welders. It was a polite and perfectly reasonable question, I believe. So why is weldequip seeking to reduce the debate to a farce when He first called my arc welder a 'toy town' device and is now saying it cost only £15? The current and normal price is about £40 but I was lucky to get it on offer at £19.

 

[weldequip]

So weldquip is wrong again. I never treat cost as my only consideration. If you read my first post on the Oxford welder (as repeated above) I think you can tell that I was being reasonably pro-Oxford welders. It was a polite and perfectly reasonable question, I believe. So why is weldequip seeking to reduce the debate to a farce when He first called my arc welder a 'toy town' device and is now saying it cost only £15? The current and normal price is about £40 but I was lucky to get it on offer at £19.

Let it go George...I could bore you to death all week about welders!
10/10 for having a go & 10/10 for perserverance, but you are using the wrong kit & just making life hard work for yourself!
weldequip

 

[matt1978]

You dont happen to know someone called Ray do you George............aka 'FBW'??

Best wishes,


Ray.........I mean Matt.

 

[GeorgeB]

Here's one of the 45-100A arc welding machines which I was pleased to pick up for £19 each. I bought them from toolstation.com and I think the current price is £40. I see it as something of a bargain for a machine of this quality. If anyone has a small Clarke arc welder (or any other respected brand of air cooled transformer machine) please post a photo of the insides. I wonder if the build quality is as good as for this Silverline unit:

I am impressed by:
- neat layout of wires, simply looks well built
- screws to secure transformer to base. No rivets.
- plenty of screws to secure case to welder. No short cuts here.
- large fan similar to those used in PC power supplies but larger. A computer's fan can last for decades, and so might this one.
- solid looking transformer. How can they have done better? Is a Clarke as good?
- rubber/foam feet, not just metal lumps
- good quality arc rod holder

Plus an incredible 3 year warranty. Talk about confidence with your product. Do Clarke give 3 year warranties on their machines?

Highly recommended. Here's the underside, showing no rivets:

 

[aero]

Some 8 year old kid prolly earned half a bowl of rice assembling that.

I don't see any chokes on the output, so the arc will be unstable. I doubt the duty cycle is much above 5% at the top end of the power setting. The duty cycle is the true measure of the quality of the transformer, how does it compare to the Clarke machine.

I would bet that, although it looks good, you'll find it was produced in a factory that does not meet any european safety standards, uses materials that are banned as they destroy the environment and the health of the people using them, but are cheap.

Sorry to **** on your fire works, but if its an AC buzz box you want a good quality second hand one that will last years can be had for a few quid more.

£19??? you couldn't even post it for that money.....how good is it really going to be in the workshop? Actaully maybe you could...thats why its £19

 

[malcolm]

Wouldn't it be fun to have an arc welder weld-off?

Maybe cheap arc vs Oxford vs one of those new fangled inverter welders that use magic instead of electricity. It would have to be done wherever the Oxford is obviously. Perhaps throw a couple of different makes or sizes of rod in for good measure.

We'd need George there of course, so we'd be looking at London (which bit are you in George, and would you be up for it?) I could pop down with a camera to record events.

Would be fun to have everyone try other people's welders for an afternoon and have feedback from people looking from different perspectives. Don't imagine for a moment we'd end up with agreement, but there would be a lot of insight out of it.

Anyone up for it? Just three people for a couple of hours in an afternoon.

 

[wyn]

Very entertaining thread

 

[madkayaker]

I would put my money on the oxford as these run all day every day in ship yards. But they would be of limited use if you need to move it (easier to move the boat!)

 

[snowcat]

You dont happen to know someone called Ray do you George............aka 'FBW'??

Best wishes,


Ray.........I mean Matt.

Hows the renta'ghost business doing?

 

[GeorgeB]

Aero

>Some 8 year old kid prolly earned half a bowl
>of rice assembling that.

Who knows? But whoever assembled it did a very good job, as far as I can see, regardless of what it cost me. If you want to discuss ethics, what makes you think that Clarke, Butters, Portamig or any other brand of welder are much different? Even if they do final assembly in Italy or the UK, the bulk of the components will have been manufactured in China, Taiwan or somewhere similar. Don't you have any other Chinese products in your home? For these reasons, I totally reject this argument.

>I don't see any chokes on the output,
>so the arc will be unstable.

I'm still waiting to see a photo inside a comparable Clarke arc welder. Does their 'entry level' arc welder really have any form of additional inductor, apart from the main transformer? If not, at which model/cost do Clarke add such a sophistication? Perhaps weldequip will know.

>I doubt the duty cycle is much above 5% at the
>top end of the power setting. The duty cycle
>is the true measure of the quality of the transformer

It's a lot better than that but, I admit, they do cut out from time-to-time when on maximum.

>how does it compare to the Clarke machine.

I doubt if the duty cycle on maximum is much different. The Clarkes might not even be as good. Do Clarke use copper windings throughout for example? I'd be surprised if they do. Again, perhaps weldequip will know.

>I would bet that, although it looks good,
>you'll find it was produced in a factory
>that does not meet any european safety
>standards, uses materials that are banned
>as they destroy the environment and the
>health of the people using them, but are
>cheap.

My points about Chinese production in general (above) also apply here so, again, I bet that Clarke arc welders are no better in this regard. All welding units must, of course, meet safety requirements in order to be approved (CE) for sale in the UK.

>Sorry to **** on your fire works, but if
>its an AC buzz box you want a good quality
>second hand one that will last years can be
>had for a few quid more.

I'd be prepared to bet these Silverline units will last at least 10 years, just like the Clarke arc welders, unless they are misused. There's simply so little to go wrong. OK, so an Oxford welder might last 50-100 years but that's not comparing like with like.

>£19??? you couldn't even post it for that money

It was free delivery. Somebody made a loss on the welder, for sure. Toolstation? Silverline? I don't know, but I was pleased to get it at that price.

>how good is it really going to be in the workshop?
At least as good as a Clarke arc welder which has anywhere near the same power rating (45-100A) and better on thin metal than arc welders which only go down to about 60 amps, regardless of what they cost.


Malcolm

>Wouldn't it be fun to have an arc welder weld-off?

What a good idea. Count me in, as soon as I've had a bit longer to practice!

>Maybe cheap arc vs Oxford vs one of those new fangled
>inverter welders that use magic instead of electricity.
>It would have to be done wherever the Oxford is obviously.
>Perhaps throw a couple of different makes or sizes of
>rod in for good measure.

This all sounds good.

I could make it to anywhere within, say, 50 miles of central London

 

[malcolm]

What a good idea. Count me in, as soon as I've had a bit longer to practice!

Excellent I'll start another thread to continue the idea for fear of spoiling this one.

 

[aero]

I'm up for the pepsi challenge.

The oxford is in er...cambridge

 

[GeorgeB]

Don't worry about practice! You'll be better at it than me.

Ah, but that would just reinforce everyone's views that I'm on a hiding to nothing and simply wasting my time! My progress is slow partly because I only do a bit of welding every few months, so far. But I have reason to press on and hope I can crack the view that arc welders are bad news for relatively thin metal. I know it's statistically unlikely I'll prove almost everyone wrong but therein lies the challenge and the incentive to avoid the gas costs, wire feed and other reliability issues concerned with many/most MIG welders.

 

[malcolm]

Really it is an interesting point. Don't be modest - you'll blow me away on arc at that sort of thickness. I might be able to get my own back with MIG when I bring out the 0.6mm stuff, but it's the guy that welds kit-kat wrappers together with TIG as a party trick that amazes me (though I take solace in the thought that his parties must be very very dull).

There's the process and then there's skill. To go for building up the skill to weld really thin stuff with an arc welder is really impressive to me, and I'm sure your experiences will be useful for many others.