Blowing the 13a fuse in my welder

[irondarren]

To be honest part P, is a real pain in the backside. The idea was it stops the stupid from being stupid. But it also stops those of us that are not so daft from making electrical alterations in a workshop or garage. Where extra sockets might be required.
It then leaves you with the choice of getting a qualified electrician to do the work, or effectively braking the law and doing it yourself.

 

[Robotstar5]

To be honest part P, is a real pain in the backside. The idea was it stops the stupid from being stupid. But it also stops those of us that are not so daft from making electrical alterations in a workshop or garage. Where extra sockets might be required.
It then leaves you with the choice of getting a qualified electrician to do the work, or effectively braking the law and doing it yourself.

I think you can do it yourself (MK will have to clarify) if you notify LABC then get it inspected / tested at your cost.

 

[madkayaker]

you can get LABC to test work after you have done it can be a lot of hassle

 

[GeorgeB]

you can get LABC to test work after you have done it can be a lot of hassle

The hassle would be bad enough and completely over the top for simply plugging in what amounts to be an extension lead. But I bet such a 'LABC test' comes with a price tag of over £100 and a Part P pro would be even more money, I expect.

So, here's my third attempt at formulating a plan:

1. The critical bit of this job, I guess, is swapping whatever connector/interface is behind the cooker at the moment, to a 30/32 amp socket like other people use for their welders. That's on the kitchen wall behind the gas cooker. I consider myself 'competent' to do that job but I assume that's not good enough for electrical work like it seems to be for gas work. You don't actually have to be CORGI registered to do gas repairs on your own house; you only have to be competent, I understand. Of course, if the house blew up that would prove you weren't competent and you'd be in big touble with no insurance. I agree with Darren. The rules are outrageous and just jobs for the boys in the electrical sphere; not least training and certificate money to certain bodies who rip off the part P contractors, who then need to rip off the consumers.

2. Once the new socket is fitted in the kitchen, I assume there's no law against plugging in a 30/32 amp extension lead and leaving it plugged in between the kitchen and garage overnight. How many of you have left a 13 amp extension lead running from one room to another for a few days? How can there be a law against that? The extension lead will not be fitted or installed, and will be removed if I move house. I assume this is not within Part P.

Birmingham City Council say:
"If you do not follow the new Building regulations:
- The electrical work undertaken may not be safe
- You may difficulty selling your home if you are not in possession of the correct certificates
- We may insist you put right faulty work"

The 'worst' thing there seems to be that I'd need to remove the new socket! Big deal. It's not like having to knock down an entire new house extension or remove all kitchen units to get to bad wiring behind them. Are there any other penalties or downsides to be aware of?

Also, from a purely technical point of view, why would a heavy duty 30/32 amp extension lead, add any extra load to the existing cable between the fuse box and the kitchen?

 

[irondarren]

The longer the lead the more draw from the cable, caused by resistance. To be honest i wouldnt fiddle around, just have a power supply run from the main consumer unit and be done with

 

[GeorgeB]

The longer the lead the more draw from the cable, caused by resistance. To be honest i wouldnt fiddle around, just have a power supply run from the main consumer unit and be done with

Thank you for your help but I don't see any warnings on reels of 30/32 amp cable. They don't say the maximum run length is limited to 10 metres or anything. This heavy duty cable is designed to carry 30/32 amps. I'd be amazed if there's any significant resistance, risk of overheating or any other adverse consequences.

There's no way I'm operning up my main fuse box to add a new circuit. I can't isolate it, can I? That's what I'd call risky! Even I would call in a professional electrician to do that but it would be far too expensive. I'd sooner spend the money on a Lorch.

Another member sent me a PM which asks whereabouts I live, what I'm trying to achieve and whether I really need a high power supply. Sorry, but I can't say where I live or the Council might be round tomorrow! But thanks for trying to help.

Taking everything into account, I'll probably revert to plan 1 and use a cheap junction box. I don't need a bulky, expensive socket and plug, especially if it still won't meet the regulations. It will only be loaded for perhaps 1 hour per year. I just want the headroom of a 30/32 amp supply line, rather than risk blowing a 13 amp supply.

 

[Bullyterrier]

But surely if you "don't need a bulky, expensive socket and plug" and you "just want the headroom of a 30/32 amp supply line, rather than risk blowing a 13 amp supply" isn't it better to put up with the 13amp and if you do blow it change the fuse, rather than break the law, and if there is ever an accident you would well and truly be in the kaka.

 

[Omniata]

But surely if you "don't need a bulky, expensive socket and plug" and you "just want the headroom of a 30/32 amp supply line, rather than risk blowing a 13 amp supply" isn't it better to put up with the 13amp and if you do blow it change the fuse, rather than break the law, and if there is ever an accident you would well and truly be in the kaka.

I agree with Bullyterrier, my house has a limited supply and it can't be increased. With my welders I was considering using a cooker ring at first but after speaking to a sparky thought better to follow part P and the law and install a "dedicated supply" when I'm ready.

I dare say you'll get away with it but if anything goes wrong you'll be in for a massive lawsuit and regulation from your electricity supplier.

Edit: Just because a cable states 32A doesn't mean it will carry it after a certain length, you need to ascertain "voltage drop", to my garage I require a cable capable of 70 to 100 Amps!! even though the maximum draw will only ever be 60A!!
You really need to speak to a "qualified sparky" and get them to do the calculations for you, if you don't you may damage the existing wire in the wall and invalidate your insurance.

 

[Sparkey]

I agree with Omniata...
It's best to get a qualified sparky to make those kind of changes, george!
Electricity is not something to fiddle around with yourself...
If you prefer burning your house down (or something similar) instead of spending some cash on a proper sparky that's your own responsability but don't advise other people to do so...

 

[madkayaker]

Omniata is doing the sensible thing and getting a highly qualified professional team of lads (+lass) to wire his new home

 

[Omniata]

At least then if anything goes wrong I'm not responsible, or at least it won't because it meets regulations and legal requirement

It doesn't benefit anyone to cut corners and you only put yourself, and others, at risk.

 

[Bullyterrier]

And if it is rented property you could find yourself breaking the contract and therefore out of a home.

 

[GeorgeB]

I agree with Omniata...
It's best to get a qualified sparky to make those kind of changes, george!
Electricity is not something to fiddle around with yourself...
If you prefer burning your house down (or something similar) instead of spending some cash on a proper sparky that's your own responsability but don't advise other people to do so...

Aren't your warnings a bit OTT for such a straightforward, simple job? I mean, if you'd rate my proposal as high risk, presumably you'd advise anyone who wants to change the plug on a toaster, to call in a professional electrician as well. I guess it's part of the marketing campaign handed out by the Government to the electrical trade, to scare consumers as much as possible, so they call in the professionals more often and they make a lot more money.

I think I'm right in saying that the only Part P element in my proposal 3, is the fitting of a socket in place of whatever is behind my cooker at present. How can I go wrong, fitting a socket? A child could do it. But seeing as that's as naughty as fitting a junction box, I'll take the much cheaper option. Actually, I see a junction box as safer than the interfaces in a socket/plug arrangement. The chances of anything going wrong must be about 0.0001%

Nobody has challenged my suggestion that there's no law against plugging in an extension lead. I'm grateful for concerns about wire rating, so I'll check that out before buying the cable. If I need 10m of cable rated at 1000A, so be it. I want to do the job safely. I just don't want to pay an electrician.

I haven't advised anyone else to do what I'm doing.

 

[Omniata]

That's not the problem George, the problem is the wire in the wall is rated to 30A to a "cooker", not to a welder... The amount of current drawn is carefully calculated upto the cooker, not to allow for a 10m extension lead or a welder...

We're only trying to advise you on safety grounds and to protect your property from damage.
Anyone can rewire a plug, yes, but when your dealing with anything above 13 amps it needs very careful consideration and certification. Something I don't believe your qualified to do...

I'm not having a go but I want to do the same sort of things as you in my house, but as I have a one year old son and girlfriend living in the property aswell I don't wish to take any risk that could not only endanger myself but endanger them too.

Your right it is a very simple task of swapping the two over, however neither the fuse at the fuseboard nor the cable in the wall are rated to have a welder of any variety running at 32 amps on an extension lead for any length of time.
You could end up damaging other electrical components in your house as well.

Again we're not having a go, just merely trying to advise you on the safe option against the not so safe one.

 

[Bullyterrier]

My father once placed a 60w lamp (bulb) where it was specified 25w, I smelt a hot burning smell, and when I looked the lamp holder had melted considerably, any longer and it would have caught fire. And that was with just 35w to big a lamp (or bulb as most people call them). Most rules and regs do seem stupid and trivial, but when it comes to electric and gas they need to be stuck too, This is the reason the new laws have been brought out to stop people turning their homes into death traps.

 

[GeorgeB]

Omniata - As I said to Malcolm when we met, I like this kind of debate because I think it flushes out the main issues on various sides of an argument and others can make up their own minds, e.g. I now realise that loading issues MAY arise if I add a 10m extension so I will now check that out in terms of the wire type required. Someone else helpfully mentioned rental properties, although that doesn't apply to me. And so on. I don't take any of it personally, like you're 'having a go at me' or anything. If you're right, then I'm grateful for the warnings. Back to the technical issues...

Is load type really an issue? If a cooker and a welder both draw 25A when plugged directly into the kitchen socket, what's the difference? If either go much over 30A, I trust the fuse will blow. If we then add a 10M extension lead, I agree the lead must be up to what it's being asked to do. I thought it needed 30A cable but you and others suggest it should probably be higher rated, so the wire doesn't overheat or anything, presumably. So if we use, say, a 10M 75A extension cable and then plug our cooker in at the other end, how does that present any greater challenge to the original house wiring and fuse box than when we plugged the cooker in directly? I can't see it but, as you know, I'm no expert, so you might be right. Can anyone explain how the 10M 75A extension lead could result in problems/dangers for the original house wiring on that cooker circuit?

The wire should not result in any additional current draw. If the cooker or welder draw 25A, I think it will stay at 25A, so where's the problem? As for a welder running at 32A, I hope the 30A fuse would blow. I'm only 'specifying' this for a welder running at up to 30A, absolute max, and probably nearer 20A max in practice.

I take my safety very seriously and I'm only prepared to contemplate this work because I view it as near-zero risk.

Incidentally, how much do you expect to pay the electrician for his work?

 

[Omniata]

You need to find out exactly what sort of wire is buried in your wall, this will be the limiting factor.....

Also the type of cable you use to make the extension will need to be both flexible and probably armoured around 16mm² capable of withstanding the current and load required....

Next a cooker initially surges but then backs off as it reaches full heat, a welder pretty much reaches a peak surge then maintains a slightly lesser load until you stop. This maintains the arc....

If you had 16mm² or 25mm² twin and earth buried in the wall upto the cooker point then you may be in a position to firstly have the fuse uprated to around the 40 amp mark and then place a 32 amp point on that wall. But then the work would need to be "certified" to meet building regs under the now infamous "part P"....

This is purely to check that the house is safe and that the work has been completed safely.
The down side of doing this is that that point can no-longer be used for a cooker....

Ceriification for such a simple job if done "correctly" should be between £50 and £150 I would have thought, depending upone the severity of the work...

Edit:

Incidentally, how much do you expect to pay the electrician for his work?

I'm having my whole house rewired and your only asking for a socket, where I live a full rewire costs around £3000+ , but then 10 miles away could cost £1500+, it's highly dependant on area and work required...

 

[Benji]

I like George

 

[madkayaker]

 

[simon718]

I like George

hope you dont think the same as him