Blowing the 13a fuse in my welder

[Muggins the Mug]

Hi George,

Personally, I'd go with the word of a sparky. My step dad was a time served sparky for over 20 years before a career change and he's a good source of knowledge about this kind of stuff. There's also a fair few people in here that are either sparkies or electrical engineers, I believe. If they say it's dodgy to tinker with what your planning, I'd be inclined to take strong heed of what they say.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[irondarren]

George you really could be playing with fire here. Cooker socket is rated at 30amps as omi say its calculated for the distance to the socket. I know from experience, length of cable has a dramatic effect. I one remember welding a car on a house hold extention lead from a small welder. No problem welding as its at such a low setting, the extention lead was rated at 2200watts, there was no way a mig unit at 50amps would draw that much power. But when you were welding the cooling fan used to slow down, that it was easily noticeable. yet the extention lead was supposedly more than man enough for the job. From the fuse board is the best and safest way

 

[Sparkey]

I like George

Hey! we're in a free world!
Whatever tickles your fancy, mate!

 

[snowcat]

To be honest part P, is a real pain in the backside. The idea was it stops the stupid from being stupid. But it also stops those of us that are not so daft from making electrical alterations in a workshop or garage. Where extra sockets might be required.
It then leaves you with the choice of getting a qualified electrician to do the work, or effectively braking the law and doing it yourself.

part p is one of those wonderful "looks good on paper" type government ideas.....pricibley is maybe a good idea, in practice its just a pain in the preverbal....

the initial idea was to maybe take the cowboy sparkeys out the equation, the first problem was many time served very good sparks, A) didn't want to be told how how to do the job, and secondly didn't want to be spending fortunes on getting certified when retirement was round the corner, they then stuck 2 fingers up to part P......

secondly getting certs, doesn't mean you know your job, iv seen this time and time again, the "qualified" guys who did some work on my fathers place didn't understand how an oil fired boiler should be wired, and tried to condemn it as unsafe (simply because they thought he was born yesterday) they were binned and went down the road

also its become a money making exercise from the testers to the guys on the ground, the spark who did my place was an out and out shark, using regs as an excuse to why he hadn't done something, he charged (or tried to) a fortune for a mediocre job, he missed putting in 2 double switches (one on the stairwell) which IMHO is dangerous, despite them being chalked on the wall, and common scense... and to top it all he left the smoke alarms not working despite signing the job off, ohhhh and the point I really fell out was when he was trying to make 80% on parts, ******, I could of and should of done the job myself and shoved the regs.......

 

[GeorgeB]

part p is one of those wonderful "looks good on paper" type government ideas.....pricibley is maybe a good idea, in practice its just a pain in the preverbal....

snowcat - yes, it's for reasons like those you mention that I prefer to do the job myself, to ensure it's done safely and to a good standard, rather than take the risk of using a sub-standard electrician who may have the paperwork but could cause other problems, starting with the cost. I will certainly check out the load and wire spec issues before doing anything so I'm gratetful for the warnings there, even though I still can't see a problem if I use 30/32 amp cable.

Most of our houses are fitted with 13 amp cable, I thought. On a ring main I guess it's doubled-up, effectively. But I still thought a socket could take a 13A appliance even, on a spur. So I thought 30A cable would be good enough for any appliance up to 30A.

It's ironic that the only Part P bit of this job is the cooker socket swap, as far as I know. Nobody has suggested I can't plug in an extension lead once that's done or that such a step comes under Part P, and yet that's whare most of the concern seems to be directed.

 

[Weldingartisan]

Most of our houses are fitted with 13 amp cable, I thought. On a ring main I guess it's doubled-up, effectively. But I still thought a socket could take a 13A appliance even, on a spur. So I thought 30A cable would be good enough for any appliance up to 30amps.

There is no such thing as 13amp or 30amp cable. Cable size is determined by the permissible volt drop at maximum required current over the intended length. If you do not understand this you should not be dabbling, regardless of any regulations no matter how petty they may seem and I'm not a sparks.W/A

 

[chriskelland]

None has yet mentioned the fact that All work in a kitchen or other special location is notifiable. (Table 1) & (Table 2).

Building Regs Part L give allowances in cable ratings according to location. In fact there are 7 parts of the building regs that cover domestic wiring, excluding Part P. In fact it is now such a minefield that I don't get involved at all, except for maintainance in my own house.

Chris.

 

[Robotstar5]

In fact it is now such a minefield that I don't get involved at all, except for maintainance in my own house.

And you can't do much of that these days

 

[GeorgeB]

There is no such thing as 13amp or 30amp cable. Cable size is determined by the permissible volt drop at maximum required current over the intended length. If you do not understand this you should not be dabbling, regardless of any regulations no matter how petty they may seem and I'm not a sparks.W/A

Within the sort of lengths I'm talking about (up to 10m), there are innumerable references to 13A cable by many, many suppliers. Here's just one:

http://www.vdctrading.com/products.asp?SubSectionID=102

This firm say they use 1.5mm 13A cable for various lengths up to 20m. Furthermore,they say they use HO7 3 x 4.0mm TRS cable for 32A leads up to 50m. They appear to use the same cable for 5m lengths so I'm not sure your argument holds water, and you don't deter me at all. Unless I come up with anything better, I'll aim to use similar 4mm cable for my DIY extension lead.

Perhaps if we were talking about a run of 200m, your point might have some merit.

 

[Omniata]

The problem arises from the cable buried in the wall, if that isn't rated to your requirements then it wouldn't matter if you used a 10mm cable for your extension lead the one in the wall will still fail if the fuse doesn't blow first.

The fuse at the fuseboard is rated to match the "length of installed" cable not including an extension and this will greatly affect its operating ability. It will either blow or a fire risk will result.

As already discussed due to building regulations you will be breaking the law if you carry out this "amendment". You are not authorised to make such an amendment without prior consultation and certification from a qualified electrician and approval from your local planning department.

This is on the basis of Health & Safety.

 

[Bullyterrier]

I wouldn't bother any more Omniata, I think you will find he is going to do the work no matter who or what is said here.

 

[GeorgeB]

As already discussed due to building regulations you will be breaking the law if you carry out this "amendment". You are not authorised to make such an amendment without prior consultation and certification from a qualified electrician and approval from your local planning department. This is on the basis of Health & Safety.

I think it's more to do with income generation but leaving that aside, would a Part P professional swap the present cooker connector for a 32A socket? He might ask: "what do you want that for?" I'd say I don't have an electric cooker but I do have an electric welder which I want to plug into the new socket and use the welder outside the back door. If it's a chargeable job, presumably he'd agree and fit the socket.

What I do after he's gone surely doesn't come under any rules or regulations. Plenty of you have plugged welders into 13A sockets and blown the fuse. Big deal. You change the fuse. If I plug too big a load into my new 32A, part P approved socket, I assume it has fuse protection. If I plug a 10m extension lead of 4mm cable in, it's so unlikely that anything will go wrong, that I'm prepare to do it. Even if some wiring burns out, I can't see how plugging an extension lead in, is against any rules or regulations.

 

[irondarren]

10mtr of 6mm extension cable dont you mean George? As far as i am aware there are no rules covering extension leads, so you are safe. as you had the socket fitted to part P

 

[Wozzaaah]

George, you've already decided what you're going to do even though certain members with professional knowledge are saying you shouldn't. If you really feel you want to disregard their advice then just get on and do it! This forum should advocate safe working practices whatever the subject and the safe working practice in this instance is to seek professional advice, not to mess with something as potentially life-threatening as electricity!

Fill yer boots!

 

[weldequip]

Fill yer boots!

Preferably with some water....
weldequip

 

[madkayaker]

or concrete

 

[GeorgeB]

10mtr of 6mm extension cable dont you mean George? As far as i am aware there are no rules covering extension leads, so you are safe. as you had the socket fitted to part P

Well, I was thinking of using 4mm cable after all the concern showed here, as if I was about to use bell wire. But, following Welding Artisan's statement that wire isn't rated for current, I went into B&Q this evening and had a look at the reels of wire on sale. The 2.5mm x 3 core cable is specified for a maximum load of 240v 28A, I think it said on the label. This remained the same specification on all lengths from the 5m product to the 50m reel so I'm fairly sure I could save some cash and make do with a 2.5mm extension lead instead of 4mm or 6mm. If Welding Artisan is still concerned, then perhaps he should report B&Q and their major wire suppliers to Trading Standards or some Health and Safety agency. I'm sure that 2.5mmm will suffice because there's no way any welder of mine will draw more than 20A. So I'd have 8A of 'headroom' on that 10m extension lead.

At the kitchen end of my 10m extension lead, it will plug into a socket rated at 30A. I'll be presenting a maximum of 20A to that socket. I think I can trust that the wire between the kitchen and the fuse box is safely rated at 30A because there's always been a 30A fuse fitted to that line. This is why I call this project near zero risk and I think much of the group's concern is totally unjustified.

 

[irondarren]

http://www.diynot.com/pages/el/el004.php

here they rate 4mm cable at 25amps, the longer the cable the more voltage drop. trouble is with welders they try to make voltage drop up by drawing more amps. 6mm cable recommend. 2.5mm cable will burn. 4mm will work but i would always place save and not put a few pence over safety. George if you buy from B&Q you will be paying more than if you got it from an electrical wholesaler like TLC

 

[Benji]

I like George even more now!! He's determined to prove everyone wrong, and in my view, that makes for lively and interesting debate, no matter what the subject. Just to put the cat even more firmly amongst the pigeons, there has grown a multi-billion $ global industry based on h&s, as there has with "green issues", racial eqiuality, sex equality, agism, animal rights and a plethora of other matters, many of which are , or would be, totally unnecessary if a bit of common sense were used and there weren't the self serving bureaucrats making money or political gain from them.

 

[GeorgeB]

http://www.diynot.com/pages/el/el004.php

here they rate 4mm cable at 25amps, the longer the cable the more voltage drop. trouble is with welders they try to make voltage drop up by drawing more amps. 6mm cable recommend. 2.5mm cable will burn. 4mm will work but i would always place save and not put a few pence over safety. George if you buy from B&Q you will be paying more than if you got it from an electrical wholesaler like TLC

Thank you for that. I will check out a few more sources of information and see if I can get some kind of concensus. It seems unlikely that B&Q and their leading suppliers would get such important information wrong, though, so I'm a bit confused. I appreciate your technical arguments and reasoning, rather than the personal comments from some others. Have they run out of logical arguments? For anyone who really knows their stuff, it should be quite possible to demonstrate some of these principles with calculations based on ohms law, etc. but perhaps that's too much to expect.