connecting a compesor to alkathane water pipe

[Pete.]

1 bar wouldn't show anything. Atmospheric pressure on the ground is 1 bar

Yeah but 1 bar gauge is 2 bar absolute. The compressor shows gauge pressure so you're still a bar in credit.

 

[captain-destructo]

have you cut the water off to the neighbour yet? you may find thats where the problem is if your lucky

 

[Gareth J]

There are literally miles of pipe feeding upwards of 50 cattle troughs here. I feel your pain. Yearly there's some kind of leak to sort.

Firstly, how old is the pipe? If its not the new blue stuff, stop chasing your tail and start saving for replacement. The old black pipe deteriorates with age and can't stick the pressure. If you have this and can't afford to mole in a new line now, look in to buying a pressure reducer, it should stop the pipe busting pressures that build up overnight.

One of the best things you can use when on leak detection is a water meter, you can buy them but they are dear. (£70??) Plum it in at the beginning and shut off your house. Shows you the volume of water your looking for and if you do the halving method described above will give you confidence about your decisions. Put it in a length of pipe and take it with you, insert it inline whenever you dig a hole, the flow rate data you get it is very helpful.

I've never tried using air for leak detection as you can generally spot the leaks rising, especially when you know where the pipes lie and know the land (without leaks). This is trickier on really wet or very free draining ground though. However, we do use a road compressor to "blast" air through the pipes routinely to remove sediment from the unfiltered well supply. Decent pipes should withstand it.

Listening sticks work best under firm ground or concrete.

It sounds like a pig of a job, the best of luck...

 

[brightspark]

if the supply is on a water meter a mile away and u know where the pipe run is find it in the middle and fit a stopcock . check the water meter and it will show which side the leak is then as pete says dig up and quarter it fit another cock and narrow it down again

 

[normspanners]

If the leak is in the big pipe which is quite probable, could you not run smaller pipe down the centre of old and save a load off digging you would only have to dig and cut old pipe at the end of your rolls?

 

[Kent]

your going to need a fair size compressor to fill a mile long pipe with sections of 2" especially if it has got various leaks.

to be fair I couldn't trace the run that good (as regards the looking) to do the lot in one go anyhow, I am pressuring it with a back flow of air in shorter sections after checking were I know the flow to be good still. Working back from my house the first will be broken into two separate runs of about 300-400 yards each with placement of stops to a point I know the flow to be good by cutting in and checking then placing in a splice. this will be broken into the first 400 to a ditch line (were I have yet to finally locate the point it crosses with trenches) than the next 400 were I have confirmed the flow reaches. After that it the run up to the neighbour that I am going to break at a coupler and put a stop in. If when I put the stop to his house in and the water in the header tank at source starts to fill up I then know there is a big leak (likely a frozen then burst copper pipe or tap / ball tap left running ) from that point on. No real need to do any more than await his return when we can sort that issue and return his supply and allow the header to fill up. At present the very large header tank is emptying at the same rate it fills with the outlet bore only half full
I think the actual problem lies with a neighbours house who is away but I need to cover all other bases that I can before hand, otherwise I am sat on my crack waiting to test a theory that could be wrong

 

[Kent]

if the water leak has not shown at the surface (nominal 4-8 bar) I dont think there is a hope in hell of air doing so

you could try a pipe clamp to close off sections but it can be tricky if the pipe is not in good condition and/or cold...... 2 round bars... at this size I would guess 1.5-2" dia, bolted together to crush the pipe..

if the water is still on, or can be turned on I would use a listening stick and walk the pipe from the point of origin stopping every 5-10 paces and listening for the leak(s)

that might work if you had all the pipe dug up or knew were it was exactly. even finding the run underground from point to point 12 ft away can prove tricky

 

[Kent]

if the supply is on a water meter a mile away and u know where the pipe run is find it in the middle and fit a stopcock . check the water meter and it will show which side the leak is then as pete says dig up and quarter it fit another cock and narrow it down again

that's basically the idea sans the meter

 

[Kent]

There are literally miles of pipe feeding upwards of 50 cattle troughs here. I feel your pain. Yearly there's some kind of leak to sort.

Firstly, how old is the pipe? If its not the new blue stuff, stop chasing your tail and start saving for replacement. The old black pipe deteriorates with age and can't stick the pressure. If you have this and can't afford to mole in a new line now, look in to buying a pressure reducer, it should stop the pipe busting pressures that build up overnight.

One of the best things you can use when on leak detection is a water meter, you can buy them but they are dear. (£70??) Plum it in at the beginning and shut off your house. Shows you the volume of water your looking for and if you do the halving method described above will give you confidence about your decisions. Put it in a length of pipe and take it with you, insert it inline whenever you dig a hole, the flow rate data you get it is very helpful.

I've never tried using air for leak detection as you can generally spot the leaks rising, especially when you know where the pipes lie and know the land (without leaks). This is trickier on really wet or very free draining ground though. However, we do use a road compressor to "blast" air through the pipes routinely to remove sediment from the unfiltered well supply. Decent pipes should withstand it.

Listening sticks work best under firm ground or concrete.

It sounds like a pig of a job, the best of luck...

Yes, a meter does sound worthwhile but as the bore size varies I should expect exact results difficult to obtain? I have had issues in the past as the neighbour and water was caught growing a large amount of weed in his barn a couple of years back, when he watered them in the flow was prioritised to such a point that it couldn't make it on up the hill to us. I am hoping the same thing has occurred with a frozen pipe in his home. Obviously it wasn't an odd plant for home use and yes they got busted, strangely enough by trading stds who were confiscating stock he was banned from keeping

 

[Kent]

If the leak is in the big pipe which is quite probable, could you not run smaller pipe down the centre of old and save a load off digging you would only have to dig and cut old pipe at the end of your rolls?

That's an idea with trying in the 1 1/2" bore stuff perhaps

 

[normspanners]

Just another idea could you not put a pump on the pipe that would create a lower pressure ie suck the water away from the leak and put your own header in maybe an ibc in a high spot somewhere, ok temp, but would work and might solve your low pressure when neigbours are drawing off in the long term.

 

[Pete.]

That's an idea with trying in the 1 1/2" bore stuff perhaps

Alkathene connectors have an insert in the pipe end. You'll be lucky to push a new pipe through unless you dig up all the joints.

 

[Kent]

Alkathene connectors have an insert in the pipe end. You'll be lucky to push a new pipe through unless you dig up all the joints.

trust me you have room in some sections, if you can feed it easy enough is another matter. I might well stage replacement and likely it will be a mole plough. first its get the water back on though

 

[Gareth J]

The meter measures flow rate, so long as you can connect it up, bore size is irrelevant.

I don't want to pooh pooh someone else's idea but don't expect to be able to push any length of alcathene inside each other, I've tried with 3/4" into 32mm. After just a few metres it gets incredibly resistive. You may be able to draw it through but I wouldn't like to guess the max length before you get to the ultimate tensile strength of the pipe you're pulling...

To be honest, this system all sounds a bit broken, what with the leaks, varying pipe sizes and the fact it was designed in such a way that your neighbour was able to starve your supply.

Another, probably useless, outside the box suggestion; you're on wetish land? Find a spring and create your own supply closer to home?

 

[Pete.]

I just looked up mole plough. Clever tool if you don't have big rocks in the ground. Could knock one of them up in a day, do you have a tractor to pull it?

 

[Kent]

The meter measures flow rate, so long as you can connect it up, bore size is irrelevant.

I don't want to pooh pooh someone else's idea but don't expect to be able to push any length of alcathene inside each other, I've tried with 3/4" into 32mm. After just a few metres it gets incredibly resistive. You may be able to draw it through but I wouldn't like to guess the max length before you get to the ultimate tensile strength of the pipe you're pulling...

To be honest, this system all sounds a bit broken, what with the leaks, varying pipe sizes and the fact it was designed in such a way that your neighbour was able to starve your supply.

Another, probably useless, outside the box suggestion; you're on wetish land? Find a spring and create your own supply closer to home?

like a say I will likely mole plough if it new line. yes it will get replaced at some stage but I still need a supply now so the new will be laid out and fitted then buried, I also plan proper valve layout constant bore with logical and easy found valves. I suspect the neighbours place will come on the market in the near future and then I have someone who is willing and able to go 50/50. bore holes have been spoken of but its great water and all the bore holes around here are fairly rubbish. new springs closer to home are out as the contours mean it cant really be any lower there being a valley between us and the supply.

 

[Kent]

Update
Pumped near 2 bar in from my house end and walked the run nothing seen or heard to the point I cut the line and found good flow previously. Interestingly the line pressured up real quick (the water cant be far away) on removing the pressure a got a big flow back of water that came hurtling into my tank then stopped. I must have pushed the head of water back creating a fall back pressure I suppose. Looking at what I know now it can only be a break in my neighbours line at his house limiting the height of the head or a big unseen leak at the tank on the hill limiting the head it can build.

Going to stop my neighbours once my 1 1/2" imperial fittings come and then watch the head at the primary tank to see if it builds then if it doesn't fit a valve on that and see if that lets it build. if it wont then the tank is the real issue. My money is on busted copper pipes at neighbours and I should hop he has good insurance! if the stop proves it to be his house with a busted pipe I will swap out the stop end with a valve and let him deal with it on his return then he still has water to his outside horse trough at least as soon as he can turn off the house stop cock. that is if he has one

it has awakened me to a future project though which is separating our supplies from the tank with separate valving, if I had this now I could have sorted it way quicker and had water this last fortnight!

 

[brightspark]

the million dollar question ??if its a private line presumably theres a water meter back at source and who is paying the water bill for water used

 

[Pete.]

Update
Pumped near 2 bar in from my house end and walked the run nothing seen or heard to the point I cut the line and found good flow previously. Interestingly the line pressured up real quick (the water cant be far away) on removing the pressure a got a big flow back of water that came hurtling into my tank then stopped. I must have pushed the head of water back creating a fall back pressure I suppose.

You pressurised the line and the air being lighter went uphill allowing an amount of water between you and the air pocket. You're not going to prove much like that, what you need is valves and a gauge. Pressure up the line, shut off the air and watch the gauge for falling pressure. That's what will find you your leak.

 

[brightspark]

You pressurised the line and the air being lighter went uphill allowing an amount of water between you and the air pocket. You're not going to prove much like that, what you need is valves and a gauge. Pressure up the line, shut off the air and watch the gauge for falling pressure. That's what will find you your leak.

and start from the meter end . and if no gauge check the meter for flow