Diagonal Brace on Gate - Which Way?

[Burdekin]

You’re adding the brace in to triangulate the frame to minimise the frame being able to distort out of square when hung. I can’t see how it makes any difference which way you put the brace. If the load is great enough to buckle it one way, then it will buckle it the other just the same if you changed the brace position. Where you put the brace will make no difference to the loads on the hinges.

 

[jordan1]

Always taught from day one for timber doors/gates etc,. low on the hinge, high on the clapping side.

 

[Justme]

If the brace is in compression then it must resist bending forces so will need to be angle / box etc.

If in tension flat plate or even a tension wire will do it.

 

[bigegg]

my thoughts:
in steel, at least.
think about using a wire cable for the "brace".
if you connect it hinge side low, its useless.
connect hinge side high, its going to keep the gate square.

different for wood, as the corner joints are the limiting factor: as said earlier.
so hinge side low for timber.
how much difference it would actually make with modern adhesives effectively welding the joints together? i'm not sure.

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

my thoughts:
in steel, at least.
think about using a wire cable for the "brace".
if you connect it hinge side low, its useless.
connect hinge side high, its going to keep the gate square.

different for wood, as the corner joints are the limiting factor: as said earlier.
so hinge side low for timber.
how much difference it would actually make with modern adhesives effectively welding the joints together? i'm not sure.

No difference at all when the set of double framed l@b garage doors were shipped stacked back to back.
Both warped opposite directions and don't fit.
If they stacked front to back I'd have stood a chance.
Judging by the joints opening up the glue ain't up to much either

 

[Mannyroad]

Forces-wise, you're absolutely bang on there rtbcomp. Its pure forces in frames. No difference on the hinges either way. Surely this thread has blown itself out by now, hee hee.

 

[Kent]

Bearing in mind steel is much stronger in tension than compression, and that attaching it with weld should make the joints as strong or stronger than the parent, how come you think it's stronger to use steel in compression here?

As you pointed out, with wood, it's better to put it in compression and set it in with notches, or whatever, so that the joints aren't torn apart (in tension)

Because of bend, gates naturally want to droop from the hinge and its surprises many how fairly heavy sections can and will do this

 

[earthman]

You’re adding the brace in to triangulate the frame to minimise the frame being able to distort out of square when hung. I can’t see how it makes any difference which way you put the brace. If the load is great enough to buckle it one way, then it will buckle it the other just the same if you changed the brace position. Where you put the brace will make no difference to the loads on the hinges.

Always taught from day one for timber doors/gates etc,. low on the hinge, high on the clapping side.

Same here really, braces are to help keep the shape square, hinges and their fixings need to be beefed up to keep the whole thing attached to the post. Lol

 

[Gareth J]

Because of bend, gates naturally want to droop from the hinge and its surprises many how fairly heavy sections can and will do this

Not sure I quite follow, are you saying that the lower hinge support is more vulnerable to being squished in than top hinge support being pulled out?

If that is the case, it's surely a fault of the strength of the hinge side upright and not the brace, lack of or direction.

Steel is definitely stronger in tension than compression - look at the picture I posted earlier, some gates are braced with quite thin rod (that one is ~10mm) that's doing very little to as any support in compression. All tension.

I can understand that some like to use a strut in compression because that's how it was done with wood and it's a nod to that tradition. For sure it'll help, especially in box or tube, but engineering wise, it can't make sense.

 

[Kent]

Not sure I quite follow, are you saying that the lower hinge support is more vulnerable to being squished in than top hinge support being pulled out?

If that is the case, it's surely a fault of the strength of the hinge side upright and not the brace, lack of or direction.

Steel is definitely stronger in tension than compression - look at the picture I posted earlier, some gates are braced with quite thin rod (that one is ~10mm) that's doing very little to as any support in compression. All tension.

I can understand that some like to use a strut in compression because that's how it was done with wood and it's a nod to that tradition. For sure it'll help, especially in box or tube, but engineering wise, it can't make sense.

Ok lets just say its how its done. The only way you will see it different is when someone over "thunk" it. You just won't see many double gates with a V centred at the join (though you wont get many even questioning why).

 

[Gareth J]

Ok lets just say its how its done. The only way you will see it different is when someone over "thunk" it. You just won't see many double gates with a V centred at the join (though you wont get many even questioning why).

Well, I don't think gate manufacturers who can get away with a lighter, stronger gate would agree. There are plenty of examples of commercially available gates that use the diagonals the in tension. A Google image search give lots of examples

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...5LQBw&start=40&sa=N#mhpiv=6&spf=1559808744248

But there are lots you see just driving around here.

I do get that it's perfectly legit and quite strong enough to put a steel brace in compression too and, as we seem to be agreeing, it's often done for personal taste or tradition. But those focussed on function over form, tend to choose top to bottom diagonals.

 

[Kent]

Well, I don't think gate manufacturers who can get away with a lighter, stronger gate would agree. There are plenty of examples of commercially available gates that use the diagonals the in tension. A Google image search give lots of examples

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...5LQBw&start=40&sa=N#mhpiv=6&spf=1559808744248

But there are lots you see just driving around here.

I do get that it's perfectly legit and quite strong enough to put a steel brace in compression too and, as we seem to be agreeing, it's often done for personal taste or tradition. But those focussed on function over form, tend to choose top to bottom diagonals.

Hey firms have made some real dumb stuff.
Ask a dg instaler about how to pack a side hung casement or door.
Can understand economic rrasons why a firm might offer the wrong way because its the same hand, in steel it does not greatly matter but its none the less wrong

 

[Gareth J]

Hey firms have made some real dumb stuff.
Ask a dg instaler about how to pack a side hung casement or door.
Can understand economic rrasons why a firm might offer the wrong way because its the same hand, in steel it does not greatly matter but its none the less wrong

You feel like it's the wrong way, perfectly legitimate but that's just your feeling about it. Engineering wise, high at the hinge side in steel is clearly more efficient. And this is reflected by the products of engineering companies making field gates where cost Vs strength is a priority over looks.

Steel is stronger in tension than compression.

 

[Turbo]

Gate is now completed!

Went for the \|\ high at the hinge side. It is getting quite heavy now so I mounted it on a rotisserie for painting.

Used my home made engine stand & some scrap angle to hold the hinge end.

The other end rotates on the frame of an old wheel chair!

 

[Maker]

Brace is the wrong way.