DIY plumbing / central heating anyone?

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

From past experience I'd first check that the original plumbing hasn't been fitted by a muppet...on my renovation the 22mm copper came out the boiler....then dropped down to 15mm with no lagging. No amount of radiator upgrading would have helped in this case and I had to redo all the plumbing!

If the plumbing is good then just measure the room and size using an online BTU calculator....no point guessing.

 

[hooblah]

I think you are being a bit silly in your responses, it is the type of question difficult to give a precise answer to with such little information.

Being uppity is not the best way of getting the best out of members, it's a community, members try their best.

A modern rad' of equal size will be more efficient but it isn't the complete answer.

If your intention is to replace the existing rad', how dirty internally is the rest of the CH system, when was it last flushed, chemically cleaned and inhibitor introduced?

All of those factors among others are important for getting the best out of any rad', out of any CH system.

For a bit of mind reading, not knowing the room size in question and with a little trepidation I think I can confidently say, those BTU figures you quote are not correct.

A 40 year old rad', am I correct in thinking the rest of the system is or not far behind in age and is a Back Boiler involved?

If so, do any of your rads' have TRVs fitted, indeed do you have a room stat' installed?

Of course you don't need any of the above to replace a radiator but if you have sludge in the system you will push it into any new rad', there is your "difference" your efficiency gone.

Apologies if it comes across that way, that wasn't my intention.

The system was power flushed a few years ago. It is a mixture of old and new radiators. A couple of the radiators are relics that were custom made to fit around the bay windows, and I can guarantee that one is sludged up. It took 3 people and a lot of struggle to move it outside so I could try to desludge it, but I don't think I did a good enough job. TBH the whole CH system needs moderninising. One thing at a time...

The room size is roughly 40-45m3. It's an awkward shape to measure.

The boiler is a Potterton unit which is around 20 years old. Still going strong, not worth changing just yet.
Some rads have TRV's, some don't. I don't know why.
There is a wired in stat downstairs which is most probably mounted in the wrong place.

Do you need more heat output from the radiator or not?

Not sure. The room hasn't been used as a bedroom for many years.

a t22 is actually smaller to the older 40 year old radiator

imperial to metric measurements

so yes you can fit a t22 rad in place of the old rad

You're assuming the existing rad is correctly sized. A T22 is 104mm deep, whereas the existing rad is 75mm deep (dual panel, no fins, enough weight to cause serious damage if you lobbed it at someone).

When you find the 5000btu size rad comes out larger than the existing one you'll know which figure is right.
Fitting the largest may rob heat from the next rooms rad or if the boiler is too small for the extra 3000btu the whole house bar that room will be cooler so the boiler will run longer.
If you switch an old 2000btu rad for a new 2000btw the heat difference is plain to see, ZERO. The difference will be the new rad is smaller.

Good to know. I'm thinking of going for something smaller, but I don't know if the existing rad was correctly sized in the first place.
Isn't that what balancing is for?

ignore the btu as the new numbers reduce the size of radiator

replace the existing rad with the same size rad

so if you have a double rad then fit the same back in, its your choice on if you choose single fined or double fined or enclosed i always opt for enclosed

the only difference is the room will heat up faster with fined compared to the older type panel radiators for the same amount of water pumped into the radiator from the boiler

whilst the older type rads held the heat longer than the newer fined type models

the older type cast iron radiators hold the heat for much longer for the same amount of water pumped into them

So the existing rad is 1300x400. I was thinking of going for something like 1200 width - mainly because it would look better in the space it's going in, but also because 1300 isn't a common size.
We'll come back to this.

From past experience I'd first check that the original plumbing hasn't been fitted by a muppet...on my renovation the 22mm copper came out the boiler....then dropped down to 15mm with no lagging. No amount of radiator upgrading would have helped in this case and I had to redo all the plumbing!

If the plumbing is good then just measure the room and size using an online BTU calculator....no point guessing.

Yeah there's absolutely no lagging on any pipework in this house other than in the loft.
I have no idea if the plumbing is 'good'. I just know it needs ripping out and modernising.

 

[hooblah]

So here's a pic of the 'existing' rad (1300x400x75). Twin panel with no fins between:




The space for the new rad is as below:



Is this arrangement detrimental to the effectiveness of the rad?

I'd prefer to go for something 1200 wide so it looks symmetrical, however there is space enough to go 1500 wide.

How much room do I need above and below the rad? There is 720mm available from the floor to the underside of the cill.
There is 110mm depth available beneath the cill. I guess this rules out a T22, as once mounted it will project 135mm.


Something like this has caught my eye. This only projects 93mm from the wall, which makes it quite suitable:

Porter Grey Double Horizontal Flat Panel Radiator - 1200x476mm | DIY at B&Q

Characterised by its sleek and contemporary aesthetics the Porto radiator boasts a slimline design that effortlessly suits a variety of spaces, making it a versatile choice. The Porto designer radiator stands out competition with its exceptional and efficient heat output thanks to its double...

www.diy.com

Agadon Panio Duplex Horizontal Designer Panel Radiator 445 x 1200 mm Anthracite - 3120 BTU - 10 Years Guarantee | DIY at B&Q

Discover the perfect blend of style and performance with our European-made designer radiator. Crafted by skilled artisans who have a passion for quality and attention to detail, this radiator is a true work of art that will elevate any modern interior. We stand behind the durability and...

www.diy.com

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Horizontal-Radiator-Modern-Double-Designer/dp/B0BHTMP3XD?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A1RD6NFB00DE1W&th=1

They're all extremely similar, except the one on Amazon is rated at 6110 BTU vs 4811 BTU and 3120 BTU for the ones sold by B&Q. Figure that one out...

Many thanks for the continued help.

 

[dobbslc]

We were sizing a radiator for the new ensuite and noticed that there's quite a bit of difference between chrome, white and black rad colours that are otherwise identical.
It's possible that one of the ones you've linked has been missing described.
Ahh I just noticed the higher rated Amazon one is possibly Chinese BTU...

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

The room size is roughly 40-45m3. It's an awkward shape to measure.

Based on 45m3 and a few other assumptions I made up from your pic....BTU calculator says around 5000btu. So anything above that would be fine (I usually go a bit over)...also fit a TRV to control the upside.

If you have access to the floor boards I'd lift them and check the plumbing + lag it (makes big difference). The one I sorted out had 15mm copper without lagging....feeding 3 radiators. The last radiator never got fully warm as I suspect all the heat was going to warm the void under the house .

 

[brightspark]

Based on 45m3 and a few other assumptions I made up from your pic....calculator says around 5000btu. So anything above that would be fine (I usually go a bit over)...also fit a TRV to control the upside.

If you have access to the floor boards I'd lift them and check the plumbing + lag it (makes big difference).

wouldnt bother lagging heating pipes under bedroom floors .just under downstairs underfloor pipes exposed to draughts from air bricks

 

[dobbslc]

Do you know if it's a one pipe system or a more modern flow and return one?

 

[brightspark]

Do you know if it's a one pipe system or a more modern flow and return one?

they were s.hite same as gravity hot water and pumped heating . mines a y plan system

 

[dobbslc]

My old system was one pipe and gravity AND clagged up with ****ee.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

wouldnt bother lagging heating pipes under bedroom floors

If the floors are up anyway I tend to lag everything...well...if it's my house that is

 

[brightspark]

If the floors are up anyway I tend to lag everything...well...if it's my house that is

you get free underfloor heating without. my dog knows where the manifold is in the bedroom and sits above it on the carpet

 

[dobbslc]

Yeah the cat knows where the radiator pipes are in the screed floor

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Our cat was the same too...always on the landing all winter.

 

[gaz1]

for fitting the rad back i wouldnt due to the plug sockets at the end

 

[brightspark]

for fitting the rad back i wouldnt due to the plug sockets at the end

View attachment 465930

makes no odds as long as its clear of the rad valves

 

[Mark 5]

So here's a pic of the 'existing' rad (1300x400x75). Twin panel with no fins between:

The space for the new rad is as below:

Is this arrangement detrimental to the effectiveness of the rad?

I'd prefer to go for something 1200 wide so it looks symmetrical, however there is space enough to go 1500 wide.

How much room do I need above and below the rad? There is 720mm available from the floor to the underside of the cill.
There is 110mm depth available beneath the cill. I guess this rules out a T22, as once mounted it will project 135mm.

Something like this has caught my eye. This only projects 93mm from the wall, which makes it quite suitable:

Porter Grey Double Horizontal Flat Panel Radiator - 1200x476mm | DIY at B&Q

Characterised by its sleek and contemporary aesthetics the Porto radiator boasts a slimline design that effortlessly suits a variety of spaces, making it a versatile choice. The Porto designer radiator stands out competition with its exceptional and efficient heat output thanks to its double...

www.diy.com

Agadon Panio Duplex Horizontal Designer Panel Radiator 445 x 1200 mm Anthracite - 3120 BTU - 10 Years Guarantee | DIY at B&Q

Discover the perfect blend of style and performance with our European-made designer radiator. Crafted by skilled artisans who have a passion for quality and attention to detail, this radiator is a true work of art that will elevate any modern interior. We stand behind the durability and...

www.diy.com

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Horizontal-Radiator-Modern-Double-Designer/dp/B0BHTMP3XD?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A1RD6NFB00DE1W&th=1

They're all extremely similar, except the one on Amazon is rated at 6110 BTU vs 4811 BTU and 3120 BTU for the ones sold by B&Q. Figure that one out...

Many thanks for the continued help.

So replying to your post 22 and this one.

I've read both and banging my reply out on a keyboard in no particular order and may have replied to things not asked, also a bit of sucking eggs, I don't know what you know but from your pictures, if your doing the work, your doing ok.

Space, just leave room either side to fit or replace rad' valves easily, you'll glad you did, leave enough space to raise and drop rad' on brackets under cill.

Pipe tails, leave enough to clear top of skirting board for rad' valves although not always necessary.

Potterton combi, not a favorite brand of mine, at 20 years old it's on borrowed time but no reason not to expect a little more out of it.

Rad' sizes, the issue as I see it if you have a mixture of old and old/new, you don't know if previously, larger sizes were installed so pushing the combi, be wary.

What you propose, the rad' link and size should be ok.

Nothing wrong with electrical sockets where they are, heat should not affect, however external cables can wrap/touch the pipe tails or the rads', pay attention to that as well as anything sitting in front of rad'.

Depth of rad', your new rad'/s as linked will protrude, I note you have done some boxing, aesthetically will this protrusion annoy you? if so the only way I see around this is to rebox cill or add to the nosing.

Balancing, hmm, interesting view but a little wrong, ballansing doesn't affect BTU or heat output as such, all it really does is to make sure hot water gets to the rads' that might require heating quickly and most.

So rads' furthest away upstairs or furthest away, valves need to be open more and require closing nearer you get to boiler.

New CH system, you can have it zoned or keep it simple.

In any CH system it is always advisable to have one rad' without a TRV fitted.

Old copper pipe is a better quality and longer lasting then the crap of the last 20 years or so and where possible reused, but old copper pipe, nonetheless has a life span.

When having new CH installed allow for for 22mm pipe flo/return to rads and tails of 15mm.

 

[gaz1]

your panel rad is rated at roughly

double panel no fins 450mm high x 1200 3742 BTUs (t60)

these are the fined rated rads dp is for double panel

dp single fined 7414 BTUs (t60)

dp double fined 8965 BTUs (t60)

the true input rating from your boiler into your radiator is this 3742 btus

yes the boiler will put in slightly more btu from the boiler as it needs to heat a slightly bigger area if fins are on the radiators

the outputs are double the rated as thats the output of heat put into the room from a heated radiator convector panels on the rads speeds up the heating of the room whilst the radiator will still remain hot for 1hr after the boiler has shut down

old rads to new rads

Central heating Radiator Guide | www.geyser.co.uk

View our Central Heating Radiator Guide, Filled With Useful Information Regarding Central Heating Radiators

www.geyser.co.uk

 

[hooblah]

Do you know if it's a one pipe system or a more modern flow and return one?

I assumed they were all flow and return... I think this has a separate flow and return, but I don't actually know. How do I tell?

Potterton combi, not a favorite brand of mine, at 20 years old it's on borrowed time but no reason not to expect a little more out of it.

Rad' sizes, the issue as I see it if you have a mixture of old and old/new, you don't know if previously, larger sizes were installed so pushing the combi, be wary.

Depth of rad', your new rad'/s as linked will protrude, I note you have done some boxing, aesthetically will this protrusion annoy you? if so the only way I see around this is to rebox cill or add to the nosing.

Balancing, hmm, interesting view but a little wrong, ballansing doesn't affect BTU or heat output as such, all it really does is to make sure hot water gets to the rads' that might require heating quickly and most.

So rads' furthest away upstairs or furthest away, valves need to be open more and require closing nearer you get to boiler.

New CH system, you can have it zoned or keep it simple.

In any CH system it is always advisable to have one rad' without a TRV fitted.

Old copper pipe is a better quality and longer lasting then the crap of the last 20 years or so and where possible reused, but old copper pipe, nonetheless has a life span.

When having new CH installed allow for for 22mm pipe flo/return to rads and tails of 15mm.

Is it a combi? It's a Potterton Profile. Google says "Non-Condensing Conventional boiler". Supposedly highly regarded.

I've gone for a T22. It fits under the cill without protruding.

I've also ordered a few Drayton TRV4's with auto balancing valves. I'm surprised they're not more common.

your panel rad is rated at roughly

double panel no fins 450mm high x 1200 3742 BTUs (t60)

these are the fined rated rads dp is for double panel

dp single fined 7414 BTUs (t60)

dp double fined 8965 BTUs (t60)

the true input rating from your boiler into your radiator is this 3742 btus

yes the boiler will put in slightly more btu from the boiler as it needs to heat a slightly bigger area if fins are on the radiators

the outputs are double the rated as thats the output of heat put into the room from a heated radiator convector panels on the rads speeds up the heating of the room whilst the radiator will still remain hot for 1hr after the boiler has shut down

old rads to new rads

Central heating Radiator Guide | www.geyser.co.uk

View our Central Heating Radiator Guide, Filled With Useful Information Regarding Central Heating Radiators

www.geyser.co.uk

Thanks. How do I know to use t50 or t60?

 

[hooblah]

I've ended up buying this rad:

Stelrad Softline Silhouette K2 Double Panel Radiator 450mm X 1200mm

The Softline Silhouette embraces the signature curved side panels and top grille that make this latest addition to the Softline series, one to watch. Vertical lines on the casing add sophistication and strength to the aesthetic appeal. It is another sleek, designer option that will grace any...

www.cityplumbing.co.uk

And a few of these TRV's:

Drayton Auto-balancing TRV4 angle

The TRV4 Classic is now available with the latest auto-balancing technology to quickly and easily balance a radiator heating system, giving average energy savings of 9% and ensuring no cold spots around the home. Once installed and set the auto-balancing valves will ensure that radiators always...

www.cityplumbing.co.uk

 

[dobbslc]

I assumed they were all flow and return... I think this has a separate flow and return, but I don't actually know. How do I tell?

It's basically a single pipe running past every radiator with a T off to both valves. When I first saw it after taking up some floorboards I thought someone had cocked up
This should explain.

One pipe central heating system

Can someone please tell me about a one pipe central heating system. Thanks JamesEB

www.diynot.com