Welcome to the forum. Yes, Those welds are shocking. Now. I think I know what has happened here. Because I had it happen a couple of months back. Two, lets say, non British people, Came into store, (you know where I work). They asked, the one that could speak English anyway. What cheap arc welders we had in stock. I'm not about to sell them a welder without knowing what they are going to weld, (saves refunds when it won't do what they want it to do) So I ask the question. Reply 'we are building a dormer roof and we have to put steel in' Naturally, my instinct is to dissuade them, saying if they have never welded, it's better to get someone in. Usually, they insist that it will be OK. So they then get sold everything, and I mean anything I can think of. They don't even Think that building control should be anywhere near it anyway. Sorry, If you employed them on the cheap, this is to be expected.
- Thread starter fwestivus
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Wow. That’s a lot of replies very quickly! Thanks everyone for commenting. We’ve had another steel co look, and they’re of the same opinion.
So, to flesh things out a bit, and apologies in advance as it’s probably going to be a bit long winded…
The steels were manufactured and fitted by a company that’s been going since the late 70s, and going by their website, you’d think this should be a fairly straightforward job, as they’ve done some much more complicated projects than a cranked ridge. Apparently things like multi-story staircases, bridges over roads, extensions to blocks of flats, or stuff for IKEA, Eton and Ordnance survey are what they usually get up to…
They came out before making it to get measurements, and drew up a plan for it based on the engineers calculations (although where the engineer had asked for welded joints, they put bolted).
The upright box section was too long and/or the beam it sits on was placed too high (possibly the padstones were put in the wrong position), so the upright had to be cut and re-joined, and the beam across had to have one end cut off at an angle to fit into the angle of the roof.
The structural engineer asked for them to weld 10mm plates on to the cut end and to put the missing bolt on the plate for the upright, so they had to come back to do that (but only used 5mm plates and left the bolt off). We’ve also since found that the top of the upright has been dented, probably from hammering it in when it was still a bit tight even after cutting and rejoining.
The cranked joint was bolted, and the angle is off (I guess because of the upright at the other end being the wrong length… but they had to cut the rafter and ridge beam back all along to fit it… so who knows…) so there was a slight gap at the bottom of that joint. They left it like that, but as the engineer had asked for it to be fully welded, they had to come back to weld that joint.
The joint at the bottom of the crank was meant to be fully welded according to the engineer, but they made it bolted, then couldn’t get the bolt holes to line up, so welded it, but when things got stripped back, it turned out they’ve only welded the inside edge.
The blocks of wood are for holding plasterboard - that’s the builders idea. Not terrible, but I pulled all but 2 out by hand, so movement would probably have been a problem there!
As for building control - it was an approved inspector doing the inspecting, and their site report says the ‘steel sizes, layout, pads tones, means of support and connections’ are in accordance with the engineers structural calculations (it doesn’t match those apart from the sizes of the steels used). We’ve put a complaint to them, and they now say they didn’t have the structural calculations, but in fact had the drawing by the steel company on site and it matches that (it doesn’t, obviously, as they had to make alterations on site to make it fit…).
With the rest of the work, there’s a long, boring, and frustrating story there, but the TL;DR is we’ve got a loft conversion built so poorly that the whole roof needs replacing now…
Having gotten shot of the AI, and had local authority building control have a look at things (they spotted the bearings don’t match the plans, as well as the other problems), I called and then sent pictures to their director… And nothing happened. That was back in February.
Since then, a well recommended (and just all round nice) steel company has come to quote for doing the rebuild, took one look at the steels and gave an opinion which is very similar to everything here!
As for why I posted… The director of the steel company called me today (apparently he’s still waiting to get paid by the builder) - I told him about the problems, and I’ve sent the pictures again and a few new ones, so it’ll be interesting to see what their response is. I keep half thinking I must be loosing grip on reality with all this - Surely no one can think this is good… and based on responses here, it doesn’t look like there’s much variation of opinion on that front!
So, to flesh things out a bit, and apologies in advance as it’s probably going to be a bit long winded…
The steels were manufactured and fitted by a company that’s been going since the late 70s, and going by their website, you’d think this should be a fairly straightforward job, as they’ve done some much more complicated projects than a cranked ridge. Apparently things like multi-story staircases, bridges over roads, extensions to blocks of flats, or stuff for IKEA, Eton and Ordnance survey are what they usually get up to…
They came out before making it to get measurements, and drew up a plan for it based on the engineers calculations (although where the engineer had asked for welded joints, they put bolted).
The upright box section was too long and/or the beam it sits on was placed too high (possibly the padstones were put in the wrong position), so the upright had to be cut and re-joined, and the beam across had to have one end cut off at an angle to fit into the angle of the roof.
The structural engineer asked for them to weld 10mm plates on to the cut end and to put the missing bolt on the plate for the upright, so they had to come back to do that (but only used 5mm plates and left the bolt off). We’ve also since found that the top of the upright has been dented, probably from hammering it in when it was still a bit tight even after cutting and rejoining.
The cranked joint was bolted, and the angle is off (I guess because of the upright at the other end being the wrong length… but they had to cut the rafter and ridge beam back all along to fit it… so who knows…) so there was a slight gap at the bottom of that joint. They left it like that, but as the engineer had asked for it to be fully welded, they had to come back to weld that joint.
The joint at the bottom of the crank was meant to be fully welded according to the engineer, but they made it bolted, then couldn’t get the bolt holes to line up, so welded it, but when things got stripped back, it turned out they’ve only welded the inside edge.
The blocks of wood are for holding plasterboard - that’s the builders idea. Not terrible, but I pulled all but 2 out by hand, so movement would probably have been a problem there!
As for building control - it was an approved inspector doing the inspecting, and their site report says the ‘steel sizes, layout, pads tones, means of support and connections’ are in accordance with the engineers structural calculations (it doesn’t match those apart from the sizes of the steels used). We’ve put a complaint to them, and they now say they didn’t have the structural calculations, but in fact had the drawing by the steel company on site and it matches that (it doesn’t, obviously, as they had to make alterations on site to make it fit…).
With the rest of the work, there’s a long, boring, and frustrating story there, but the TL;DR is we’ve got a loft conversion built so poorly that the whole roof needs replacing now…
Having gotten shot of the AI, and had local authority building control have a look at things (they spotted the bearings don’t match the plans, as well as the other problems), I called and then sent pictures to their director… And nothing happened. That was back in February.
Since then, a well recommended (and just all round nice) steel company has come to quote for doing the rebuild, took one look at the steels and gave an opinion which is very similar to everything here!
As for why I posted… The director of the steel company called me today (apparently he’s still waiting to get paid by the builder) - I told him about the problems, and I’ve sent the pictures again and a few new ones, so it’ll be interesting to see what their response is. I keep half thinking I must be loosing grip on reality with all this - Surely no one can think this is good… and based on responses here, it doesn’t look like there’s much variation of opinion on that front!
mtt.tr
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if its third party very slim chance of it being looked at properly.
People moan about local authority inspectors but they are by the booked, they are not expecting a payment.
I know plenty of bad builders that think 3rd parties are the best thing since sliced bread
mtt.tr
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im all thumbs and fingers
addjunkie
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Sadly I suspect the steel guy hasnt been paid, as youve not paid the builder, who has now moved on the mess up someone else job, to try to make some money, or hes gone bump!
Did you or the builder have project insurance you can claim from, or sub contractor insurance possibly?
Pigeon_Droppings2
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If there are limited companies involved then my first step would be to look them up on companies house and check their submitted accounts ....doing this has saved me a lot of hassle in the past as it'll show up the companies who are in trouble financially or have been around for less than a year.
Good to know the financials of the people you are dealing with and how deep their pockets might be...sounds like you are taking the right approach...I would get it inspected with a written report on the faults and go from there. Definitely want everything in writing too with this one me thinks.
Sorry this has happened to you....life is hard enough without this sort of hassle to deal with I reckon.
Good to know the financials of the people you are dealing with and how deep their pockets might be...sounds like you are taking the right approach...I would get it inspected with a written report on the faults and go from there. Definitely want everything in writing too with this one me thinks.
Sorry this has happened to you....life is hard enough without this sort of hassle to deal with I reckon.
Unfortunately the builder has been paid.
To try to be somewhat fair, I could understand the steels not being paid for until they’re done right… except… the builders work is hopeless, the roofer made the roof worse, the plumber failed a gas safe inspection, the electrics are like a rats nest, the window company used a dodgy vat number… and the builder says they’ve not paid anyone (and this was before all the problems were spotted!) - it‘s looking possible that even materials were on credit… If it could go wrong, it has. The steels seemed like they might have been the only good bit of work, being from an otherwise decent looking company dealing in pretty big projects (and the AI signed them off, after all) until everything became suspect and we got more competent people to have a proper look at them!
Going into it, I didn’t know anything about building, but the builder seemed OK (the original architect thought he looked ok, previous work, planning applications, drawings and references checked out, no reports to trading standards, showed insurance, had been running for several years, it wasn’t the cheapest quote etc etc) and you’d think the approved inspector would spot things like joists being missing or unsupported, rafters not touching wall plate or ridge (which is to say the rafters are held up by the tile battens, rather than the other way around), rafter ties being cut out, that almost none of the work meets building regs etc… but they didn’t raise any concerns (turns out they also put the initial notice in 2 months after work started, so probably shouldn’t have been inspecting at all).
Sadly, it seems like these sort of things happen all too often. Home insurance is covering a solicitor, and there’s been an expert witness survey (nearly 150 pages of problems long) and reports from 2 different structural engineers… but the builders public liability insurance say he’s breached their terms so they’re denying coverage, and the builder is still insisting it’s only 2-3 days work to fix everything so he doesn’t need to claim on his professional indemnity… chances of recovering anything are pretty much zero.
Maybe I’ll write a book on how not to get building work done…
Going forward, the new builders/steel etc come with glowing reviews (even from LABC, which is nice), and have all been fantastically helpful with everything since the original builder walked off back in October - so there are decent people out there!
At this point I mostly just try to find anything to have a (slightly hysterical) laugh at, even if it’s just at how stunningly bad the work is (that’s where the decking went! They used it to hold plasterboard to a stud wall!) and how foolish I was to trust anyone and not have a printed copy of the building regs to hand at all times! That and seeing the olympic level buck passing from the people that worked here!
As for the steels… even if they offered to re-do them for free, I just couldn’t trust the work. (I forgot to say that they said they didn’t carry less than 10mm plate, so they couldn’t have used the 6mm stuff that they used… how I wish I’d got that in writing!). I’m looking forward to seeing what sort of glowing review of their own work they come back with from the pictures, though!
The comments here have given me a couple of good chuckles, at least, so thanks for that!
When they need to come down, it’ll be interesting to see how easy it is to break those joints - I’ll try to get some pics for further amusement!
500e
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I have had a few building jobs done, I follow and watch like a hawk, 1 lot 18inch rsj bedded on morter, another on an extension left the toilet over flow in a cavity wall, morter changing colour by the day, and when you point it out they tell you it is OK.
Packed 1 plumbers tools and showd him to his van on one job
Best of luck hope it works out
Packed 1 plumbers tools and showd him to his van on one job
Best of luck hope it works out
Shedendman
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Better still,video it
Screwdriver
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As a confirmed amateur, I have more experience than most professional welders regarding bad joints (!). Despite the welds being badly made, they will most likely still be difficult the break, except any single runs you can "hinge" apart. They'll likely pop off surprisingly easily. The experience I have (with my own disasters) is that even a terrible weld can still stand up to a fair bit of abuse before it will let go.
That's not the issue here, they are supposed to stand the test of time and given time, poorly made welds can simply crack all by themselves due to inclusions, water traps or stress risers or stresses introduced by poor installation (like hammering things in to fit). Metal is a crystal. A solid metal part is a lattice structure which is where metals get all their strength from. As temperatures vary or vibrations occur/loads shift; any imperfections in the lattice structure can also move around over time causing the internal structure of the steel to reorganise itself.
This is what catches people out who **think** they can weld when actually they're just sticking bits together without knowing what they're doing (people like me!). That's fine for non critical hobby welders (me again) but if the job has to perform to a known standard then it also has to be produced to a given standard. This is especially true with safety critical vehicle joins where constant motion allows fatigue failure to present itself fairly soon after the "weld" is made. It is also true for structural steels except failures can take a lot longer to develop.
All I am suggesting is don't expect these things to "fall" apart. Like I said, even a badly made weld will stand up to a fair bit of abuse. Ask me how I know...
CornishPete
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Whenever I build an extension that requires steel, which is almost always nowadays, it's up to me to provide the drawing for their manufacture and I install myself. Is it the same steel company that's done the measuring, fitting, and subsequent on site alterations as the off site fab work looks ok? Also the timber noggins don't need to be in the web that tight, cut at a very slight angle, and a tap with a club hammer to get flush with the flange is perfectly sufficient as by the time it's boxed in with fireboards, beaded, then skimmed it'll be absolutely solid.
There was a set of calculations from a structural engineer, which gave things like the location and specification of the steels needed and what bearings, which was sent to the steel company. From then on everything was the same company - they came out to measure, drew their own plan, manufactured the steels, then their site manager delivered and installed it with the alterations done on site, and later came back for the corrections. The off-site work looks mostly ok, although there’s obviously issues with the measurements or it wouldn’t have needed altering on site and the engineer and their drawing say it should have 150mm bearing at each end, but has about 130mm… If it were me, I’d not want to try to bodge it if it didn’t fit, and rather try to work out what’d gone wrong first, but I think they were rushing things a bit by the end - it was meant to take a day to fit, but they got the builder to re-site the padstones that had been placed wrong, and I guess when it still didn’t fit, they just made do as best they were able to.
dobbslc
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I'm sorry to see all the problems you've had.
I went through similar about three years ago with some steel beams that the builder had his mate weld up. I came home from work and had a look and wasn't happy at all, pidgin shxt welding along a plate welded to a beam that was holding my existing roof and new extension up!
I posted a few photos on here asking the question like you and had pretty similar answers. I told the builder straight away I wasn't happy and got building control round asap. The building control officer wasn't really bothered by what he saw but I suspect he didn't know his **** from his elbow as far as welding was concerned
.
Anyway I got someone else to come over and grind the old welds back and re do it all properly.
All sorted in a few days but that was bad enough!
My builders were actually pretty good but didn't know a bad weld when they saw it so didn't really know it wasn't good enough, I had a chat with him telling him not to use that guy again as he'll kill someone.
I hope you get this sorted soon.
I went through similar about three years ago with some steel beams that the builder had his mate weld up. I came home from work and had a look and wasn't happy at all, pidgin shxt welding along a plate welded to a beam that was holding my existing roof and new extension up!
I posted a few photos on here asking the question like you and had pretty similar answers. I told the builder straight away I wasn't happy and got building control round asap. The building control officer wasn't really bothered by what he saw but I suspect he didn't know his **** from his elbow as far as welding was concerned
.Anyway I got someone else to come over and grind the old welds back and re do it all properly.
All sorted in a few days but that was bad enough!
My builders were actually pretty good but didn't know a bad weld when they saw it so didn't really know it wasn't good enough, I had a chat with him telling him not to use that guy again as he'll kill someone.
I hope you get this sorted soon.
mtt.tr
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I dont know why but steel manufacturers can not measure.
This and windows not fitting is a very common occurrence
Pigeon_Droppings2
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Oh they can measure...it's the tolerance that the issue +/- 1 inch!
Problem is nobody can really be bothered it seems...if it's too long just keep cutting bits off until it fits.
If it's too short then stick a bit on...or get a new bit and just repeat the first step.
Drives me nuts I have to say...I end up checking everything myself.
mtt.tr
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Though I have ended up with enough steel to make a nice press courtesy of a builders mistake 3 times
