Female brake flares

[langy]

metric fittings come in two lengths long and short the short are very close to running out of thread screwed into some female nuts I just bought some long ones the other day for this very job all ford joins are just a female to male usually the female nut is on the master cyl side of the length of pipe and the copper nestles nicely into the steel female flare-- I--- have never had one leak but have seen them with weeps on retest because the steel pipe was flared too hard.
from the mot side of things there is nothing wrong with a join, but in my eyes, as long as the copper pipe is well supported I hate to see pipes just thrown in, in fact I re failed one just on monday for that reason new copper pipe not clipped and rubbing on a raw panel edge !

I think I'm right in saying pipes are supposed to be clipped every 300mm, that's how I do mine.

 

[Justme]

I was always told that the MOT man would fail a fem/male joint unless it was an original joint.

Thats what I always thought too.

 

[normspanners]

I think I'm right in saying pipes are supposed to be clipped every 300mm, that's how I do mine.

most are but some cars across the rear end are surprisingly lacking clips and front to rears can be about 600 mm without fasteners.

 

[normspanners]

The car can't be worth much then bud, the longest brake pipe on any car isn't gonna be anymore than a tenner max !!!

that might be the pipe cost but when you have to take tanks out and rear suspension down it soon ramps the cost.

 

[normspanners]

I try to run a full pipe without a joint if I can. If I have to joint a pipe I've never liked those male to female brake unions and I always use a fem/fem coupler with single flare male ends on the pipes. I was always told that the MOT man would fail a fem/male joint unless it was an original joint.

dont know where you have got that from all you can check is, that it is supported and is not leaking.
Also how is a tester to know if it is not an original point of jointing.

information

This inspection applies to all types of braking system.
Repairs to the pressure lines of hydraulic brake systems are unacceptable unless suitable connectors are used. Compression joints of a type using separate ferrules are not suitable.

method of inspection

A. All Braking Systems

1.
Check for leaks in any part of the braking system with and without the brakes being applied.

2.
Check all components for security, condition and operation.

Note: It is not always possible to determine the presence and effectiveness of certain types of locking devices e.g. locking fluid or ‘nyloc’ nuts.

reason for Rejection

3.
Check all braking system components for any inappropriate repair or modification.
1.
A leak in any part of a braking system.

2.
A braking system component:
a.
insecurely mounted


b.
excessively weakened by corrosion

c.
damaged to the extent that its function is impaired

d.
retaining or locking device missing or insecure.

3.
A braking system component inappropriately repaired or modified.

information

B. Brake Pipes and Flexible Hoses
If the vehicle is fitted with vacuum or power operated brakes the engine must be running during these inspections
.
A missing brake pipe clip is not necessarily a Reason for Rejection provided the brake pipe remains adequately supported.

To correctly assess the condition of corroded metal brake pipes, surface dirt might have to be removed. This might require light scraping with the Corrosion Assessment Tool ‘spade end’. Care must be taken not to damage any protective coating.

Chafing, corrosion or damage to a rigid brake pipe so that its wall thickness is reduced by 1/3 (e.g. approximately 0.25 mm for typical hydraulic brake pipe) is a reason for rejection.

A hose should be rejected for cracking or chafing only if it is severe enough to expose the reinforcement.

Certain alloy components may have a white surface deposit which is not to be regarded as ‘excessive corrosion’.

method of inspection

B.
Brake Pipes and Flexible Hoses
1.
Check that rigid brake pipes are securely held and not free to vibrate.

2.
Check all accessible rigid brake pipes for:
a.
fouling by a moving part

b.
kinks

c.
chafing, corrosion and damage.

3.
Examine flexible hoses for signs of weakness under pressure with brake fully applied.

4.
Examine all flexible hoses for:
a.
room to move as necessary without fouling any part of vehicle

b.
kinks

c.
stretching or twisting

d.
chafing, damage or deterioration

e.
condition of ferrules

f.
exposure to excessive heat.

reason for rejection

1.
A rigid brake pipe inadequately clipped or otherwise supported.

2.
A rigid brake pipe:
a.
fouled by moving parts

b.
kinked

c.
excessively chafed, corroded or damaged.

3.
A flexible hose bulging under pressure.

4.
A flexible hose:
a.
has insufficient room to move, resulting in fouling

b.
kinked

c.
stretched or twisted

d.
excessively chafed, damaged or deteriorated

e.
brake hose ferrule(s) excessively corroded

f.
exposed to excessive heat.

 

[langy]

most are but some cars across the rear end are surprisingly lacking clips and front to rears can be about 600 mm without fasteners.

It might be in the C&U book but I've definitely seen 300mm centres

 

[Sid]

dont know where you have got that from all you can check is, that it is supported and is not leaking.
Also how is a tester to know if it is not an original point of jointing.

Found the info you listed as well, and the only strong no-no listed was for ferrule compression fittings, which as I understand it is similar to plumbing compression fittings.

I paid a visit to the garage that will be testing the car, and he was not concerned with the use of the female to male fitting at all. Claimed to use them himself without issue.

 

[normspanners]

So to my question. Do I make the female/double flare with the SAE die and punches? There's no DIN female flare option with my flaring tool (a decent one). I have seen one diagram when looking that says that's what you do, but it's only one diagram from one source.

sorry the answer is just use the sae type flare but double flared in the female and single in the male, that is the usual method

There's no DIN female flare option with my flaring tool (a decent one).

the square back type flare is not very common now and used to be on ( some) imperial systems

 

[normspanners]

Repairs to the pressure lines of hydraulic brake systems are unacceptable unless suitable connectors are used. Compression joints of a type using separate ferrules are not suitable.

this is where some testers get it wrong they Quote the first line and forget the bit in red

 

[Sid]

sorry the answer is just use the sae type flare but double flared in the female and single in the male, that is the usual method

Looking closely at the male fittings (that came with the female ones), they have a countersink in the end. Different to my other male fittings. That countersink would match an SAE single flare's base. When I tried it with a flat bottom DIN male flare it did distort it.

So it seems that the fitting is an SAE one. The pipe they came with was listed as 3/16 as opposed to 4.75mm, so that would be fair. I'll make male and female SAE flares then.

 

[doubleboost]

The car can't be worth much then bud, the longest brake pipe on any car isn't gonna be anymore than a tenner max !!!

I know that some have joints in them for convenience but I prefer to keep joints to a minimum myself.

It is not the cost of the pipe .
The labour for removing fuel tanks steering racks ect to do a full pipe
It is one thing doing a pipe on your own car, but a different ball game doing it for a living.
Why charge 3 hours labour to replace a 12 foot pipe when only the last 4 inches is bad.
Proper pipe joiners are perfectly safe as long as the correct nuts / flare is used .

 

[doubleboost]

Thats what I always thought too.

That is total ********
As long as it is not a compression joint (like a plumbers joint).

 

[langy]

It is not the cost of the pipe .
The labour for removing fuel tanks steering racks ect to do a full pipe
It is one thing doing a pipe on your own car, but a different ball game doing it for a living.
Why charge 3 hours labour to replace a 12 foot pipe when only the last 4 inches is bad.
Proper pipe joiners are perfectly safe as long as the correct nuts / flare is used .

True

 

[armalites]

Joining pipes on Discovery 3 is very common as the rear ends rust like a good un and to do a full run would require body off. The front of the pipes are usually fine. Land Rover even list joiners in the parts catalogue now.

 

[armalites]

I think I'm right in saying pipes are supposed to be clipped every 300mm, that's how I do mine.

Yours are probably +/- 0.001mm or you start again judging by the standard of your work

 

[normspanners]

Yours are probably +/- 000.1mm

you have put the point in the wrong place that is still only a tenth of a mm

 

[armalites]

the zeros were for dramatic effect but I have adjusted it

 

[langy]

Yours are probably +/- 0.001mm or you start again judging by the standard of your work

Hahaha

 

[Lufbramatt]

that might be the pipe cost but when you have to take tanks out and rear suspension down it soon ramps the cost.

Yep, the previous owner of my BMW paid nearly £300 to get the rear brake lines replaced on it according to an invoice I saw, the 15 ft of pipe is a couple of quids worth, it's all labour to drop the fuel tank.

 

[Bmouthboyo]

Sorry to dig this up but it seems relevant for what I am asking so seems silly making a new post. I need clarification, if anyone is so kind is what flares to use for joining the existing good steel to the kunifer pipe I will be splicing.

I have ordered these brake pipe fixings here which include the various parts I need. I will use the male connectors with female joiners only.

The description does not state which flare the joiner needs as I understand this is what dictates which tool to use (SAE or DIN).

From what I gather if I was connecting to a MB brake union I would need DIN as most EU cars use this. However the fixings I am making will be stand alone and simply splicing in about a meter of pipe along the long run under the vehicle, and so not joining and MB unions.

I have searched around and seems that no sellers of the joint component state which flare is needed and don't show images of the inside mating surface. From the image above it is looking like I may need SAE tool (bottom left join fixing) to be able to make the 'bubble flare' but wondered if anyone has any experience with the ones like I ordered on Amazon here in the UK.

Thanks