How shallow could I make an engine sump?

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

No idea if this will be correct...but there seem to be quite a few on the evil empire (the one below ships to the UK but not all will....you'd need to check by clicking through and trying to buy). I've bought auto transmission coolers and thermostatic valves from the USA and they arrive no problem.

Might end up being expensive with shipping and VAT added...the transmission bits I bought still ended up being a lot cheaper than over here.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XLYB81M/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A121FQFKA3LNQJ&th=1

 

[mike os]

You can go to 2mm off the crank throw…. But it’s a pita

 

[Barking Mat]

The motor racing company next door to us run dry sump rally cross Peugeot cars.

From my* understanding, there's an external oil pump sucking whatever ends up in the sump.

Pumping it under pressure to the engine, they had an issue, under acceleration, lack of pressure, they made the cross section of the feeder pipe bigger, which solved the problem.

Just a thought.

*My understanding, no expert.

 

[Rrobson]

@Barking Mat id have thought it’d be a flow problem rather than a pressure issue with such a highly strung engine, as the engines oil pump will be doing the hard work, although lack of flow will result in lack of pressure obviously… presumably why the increase in pipe bore solved the problem. But it’s a valid point, you need to supply at least as much as the engine wants otherwise you’ll be in trouble!

 

[PhillipM]

The biggest issue with shallow sumps is the oil will just slosh away from the pickup into those wider wings you just made and away from the pickup, starve the engine and bang, spun bearing.
I wouldn't be too worried about going a little shorter - maybe an inch or two - so long as you then added decent baffling around the pickup and the sump wings to stop it running away from the pickup - and importantly, enough reserve there for it to feed for 5-10 seconds while cornering and braking, etc.
But the right answer is dry sump it.

 

[Tom O]

Probably easier to extend the forks a couple more inches put the front wheel on a block and measure the clearance.

 

[8ob]

Can you dry sump it? What’s involved? Never done one but had a few bikes that were.

Not complicated or expensive for the yank engines James, done a fair few. With the reduced diameter flywheels/bellhousing and the dry sump you can grab about 5" more ground clearance over a standard sump which in a car means the whole engine can sit that much lower in the chassis without grounding out.. All this gear is cheap and easy to get hold of in the states.

Simple three stage belt driven pump, large section/segment is scavenge, the other two are separate pressure feeds to crank and cam.

Black shallow sump next to a dry sump.

 

[James1979]

Cheers Bob. Something else for me to get into a wormhole about when I can’t sleep

 

[Barking Mat]

@James1979 , if you have any queries pm me I've a good relation with the motor racing company here, and can always ask, they know there stuff, but as ever this forums a wealth of fairly sound information.

 

[James1979]

@James1979 , if you have any queries pm me I've a good relation with the motor racing company here, and can always ask, they know there stuff, but as ever this forums a wealth of fairly sound information.

Thanks mat. I will have some I’m sure

 

[Bornfree]

The lowest point of my trike is the engine oil pan, and rather than lift the whole trike up further I was thinking how much I could slice off the bottom. Obviously there's an oil pump pick-up, and the crank is in there doing it's thing.

I thought I might extend the sump part forward 6" to retain oil volume, but make it 1" or more shallower.

The stupid pyramid speed bumps on many of the roads in my area are what worry me, from wheel would go over, suspension would dip down, oil pan would take a direct hit.

There are quite a few dry sump oil pans around, on the interweb, but that seems a little radical and expensive.

View attachment 362524

Maybe 1 1/2" would do which makes it level with the transmission oil pan. I could use 2 mm steel to do it, and curve it like a skid plate.

View attachment 362525

View attachment 362526

Measure the distance between full and add on the dipstick and take that much off the sump without making it any wider. Engine's are made to safely run at the low level.

 

[PhillipM]

The biggest issue with a dry sump system for harsh use (and yes, road counts, way harsher environment than clean racing with inspections constantly) is drive belt life/protection, and finding somewhere for the oil tank that isn't in the way and is still easy to service.

 

[Barking Mat]

@Morrisman , equally, if you need any advice from a pro, (not me).

@James1979 , if you have any queries pm me I've a good relation with the motor racing company here, and can always ask, they know there stuff, but as ever this forums a wealth of fairly sound information.

 

[jsf55]

1092 6.56.5

Pan Depth: 6.5”Pan Capacity: 6 Quarts (6.6 Liters)System Capacity: Quarts (7.6 Liters)Stroke Clearance: 4.125" (With Steel Rods, Check Crank Scraper Before Final Install) Description: 12" long, 15" wide sump. This pan has 6 gates, a diverter, full windage tray, scraper, and an oil temp...

kevkoracing.com

Copy that ?

 

[bricol]

Is a sunday afternoon cruiser three wheeler really going to push the boundaries of oil pickup?

Reduce the sump depth and fit an accusump for those momentary blips (I just happen to have two brand new ones that might be for sale . . . I sold the project car one was going on)

 

[Morrisman]

Is a sunday afternoon cruiser three wheeler really going to push the boundaries of oil pickup?

Reduce the sump depth and fit an accusump for those momentary blips (I just happen to have two brand new ones that might be for sale . . . I sold the project car one was going on)

It's never going to have the sort of centrifugal force a track car would, or be run hard on the throttle for very long, 350hp in a 1000lb trike would take some serious skill to hold wide open throttle for long.

If I actually do the job I'll extend the sump forward to keep the oil volume up.

 

[Morrisman]

Well sort of - you aren't walking into a store and buying it - that's on their "marketplace" site - Walmart Amazon. The seller might not even have it, drop-shipping it from somewhere else.

Andot all Walmarts sell guns. You can't just buy one over the counter - they have the same background checks as any other gun shop in the US. If they don't have one of their special members of staff for gun sales on duty, you can't buy one, and they stopped selling semi-automatic rifles some years ago.

Crazy thing is, in most states I believe you can be refused a gun sale at a Walmart (or any other gun shop) when you don't pass the check, or your address doesn't come up, or any other reason . . . then walk next door to the gun show that happens to be on, and buy a gun in a "private" sale with no checks at all.

But to answer the question

As I can't see you exactly challenging the laws of Physics around corners on that thing, I reckon you could just make the bottom flat, level with the bottom of the gearbox, extending the flat bottom forwards to regain a bit of capacity. Such a sump has worked on my Ford crossflow engined trials car for the last 20 years, and that ends up at some crazy angles of dangle on sections.

That's exactly my plan, extending it forward with a gentle curve up. Still hold lots of dinosaur juice, but the benefit is a long shallow ramp to slide over any speed bumps.

I remember reading an article about a Cobra kit car, in a mag, with 3" ground clearance. They reckoned that on a test drive they sump grounded out and 'popped out the drain plug'..... so they put it back in and filled it with oil, and carried on.

What a load of cobblers, it's not a cork, it's a threaded steel plug.

I'll put mine in the rear face of the sump if I do the chop.

 

[8ob]

That's exactly my plan, extending it forward with a gentle curve up. Still hold lots of dinosaur juice, but the benefit is a long shallow ramp to slide over any speed bumps.

You will get away with that, might pay to add a windage tray.

Milodon 32100 Chevrolet V8 1955-79 283 307 327 350 Oil Pan Windage Tray | eBay

Milodon 32100 Chevrolet V8 1955-79 283 307 327 350 Oil Pan Windage Tray.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[bricol]

I remember reading an article about a Cobra kit car, in a mag, with 3" ground clearance. They reckoned that on a test drive they sump grounded out and 'popped out the drain plug'..... so they put it back in and filled it with oil, and carried on.

What a load of cobblers, it's not a cork, it's a threaded steel plug.

Caterham racers with a Rover k-series have been known to undo the flanged steel plug in the alloy wet sump from repeated contact with race track kerbs - the mod to fixit being to weld a boss in the other side of the sump for the plug so contact would act to tighten it.

 

[Fastdruid]

Not complicated or expensive for the yank engines James, done a fair few. With the reduced diameter flywheels/bellhousing and the dry sump you can grab about 5" more ground clearance over a standard sump which in a car means the whole engine can sit that much lower in the chassis without grounding out.. All this gear is cheap and easy to get hold of in the states.

Simple three stage belt driven pump, large section/segment is scavenge, the other two are separate pressure feeds to crank and cam.

View attachment 362575

Black shallow sump next to a dry sump.

Where can you get pumps cheap from? Last I looked it was a couple of k to do of which the lions share was the pump and the "sump" (although that was admittedly for CNC'd ones).