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Seattle Smitty
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In hunting for info on this old tech, I run into a lot of, "Carbon arc??? Why bother??!!!" Many are young guys who think that stick welding is for Neanderthals, and that the intelligent welder shouldn't waste his time with anything but pulsing inverter wirefeed and nice clean TIG.
Three true stories:
1) You're on your second day, the hell-and-gone up in the hills, answering a gyppo logger's hot-rush emergency. You didn't have time to fill your bottles and you're starting to get a little concerned about having enough gas because you are so far up in the woods they had to tow your 2wd service truck into camp with a Cat. You need to preheat an assembly for welding . . . but no problemo, you can conserve gas by breaking out the old arc-torch!
2) You're a small cattle farmer, a one-man-show most of the year, and for the last week you've busy as a one-armed paper hanger, and you keep forgetting to take that empty oxygen bottle up to Severy to be filled, and now you need to braze a busted part . . . but no sweat, you have that arc-torch that came with your buzz-box!
3) You're a poor young blacksmith/welder/tin-bender/mechanic in a dusty 4th-World land with an ancient and semi-glorious past and a dismal present. You'll never be able to afford a new piece of welding equipment in three lifetimes, and the only good news is that the electricity has been working at least half the time. But you have wound your own transformer and cobbled together a welder out of industriously-salvaged scrap, and you built your own arc torch, too, and with these rough tools you feed your family and answer to no man.
The first story is mine, and I met the other two men. The farmer was a neighbor of my uncle outside of Howard, Kansas, fifty years ago. He only had one helmet, but he put it on little me and let me try to light his arc torch, probably influencing the subsequent course of my mis-spent life.
I ran into the Ethiopian handyman here a couple of years ago, and heard his story. All his friends were avid scroungers and DIY'ers, poor but resourceful cousins of mostly bygone Americans who built their own cultivators and motor scooters and shortwave radios from plans in Popular Science and Popular Electronics and Mechanix Illustrated. Somehow he managed to get himself into the local university, found a way to bring himself and his family to the USA, became a proud citizen, and now can afford just about any welding machine he wants.
Three true stories:
1) You're on your second day, the hell-and-gone up in the hills, answering a gyppo logger's hot-rush emergency. You didn't have time to fill your bottles and you're starting to get a little concerned about having enough gas because you are so far up in the woods they had to tow your 2wd service truck into camp with a Cat. You need to preheat an assembly for welding . . . but no problemo, you can conserve gas by breaking out the old arc-torch!
2) You're a small cattle farmer, a one-man-show most of the year, and for the last week you've busy as a one-armed paper hanger, and you keep forgetting to take that empty oxygen bottle up to Severy to be filled, and now you need to braze a busted part . . . but no sweat, you have that arc-torch that came with your buzz-box!
3) You're a poor young blacksmith/welder/tin-bender/mechanic in a dusty 4th-World land with an ancient and semi-glorious past and a dismal present. You'll never be able to afford a new piece of welding equipment in three lifetimes, and the only good news is that the electricity has been working at least half the time. But you have wound your own transformer and cobbled together a welder out of industriously-salvaged scrap, and you built your own arc torch, too, and with these rough tools you feed your family and answer to no man.
The first story is mine, and I met the other two men. The farmer was a neighbor of my uncle outside of Howard, Kansas, fifty years ago. He only had one helmet, but he put it on little me and let me try to light his arc torch, probably influencing the subsequent course of my mis-spent life.
I ran into the Ethiopian handyman here a couple of years ago, and heard his story. All his friends were avid scroungers and DIY'ers, poor but resourceful cousins of mostly bygone Americans who built their own cultivators and motor scooters and shortwave radios from plans in Popular Science and Popular Electronics and Mechanix Illustrated. Somehow he managed to get himself into the local university, found a way to bring himself and his family to the USA, became a proud citizen, and now can afford just about any welding machine he wants.
Glad to hear there are still some old school out there. I know this technique is old hat but its useful when no other option will do. It works wonders on thin gauge steel plate.such as tool boxes, it can be filed, shaped ,polished,sanded. Hey working with metal is an art . Lets not lose sight of the basics. ( example) The famous Norton featherbed frame which is still made by hand. (not a mig weld in sight).
Mikey98118
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Yes, but there's no free lunch. You would have to make or buy the special torch (carbon rod holder). If you buy the holder, make sure it is the model still offered by Lincoln; this is the only model available in the UK, so no confusion is possible there. None of the slide motion holders are any good; that also goes for the one shown in free plans off the Net. You need the carbons to move at right angles to the holder--not parallel with it.
Next, you would want to find some kind of brass fitting to reduce the 1/4" minimum these holders are designed for, down to 1/8" and then order the smaller diameter carbons through a welding supply dealer (yes, standard air-arc carbons are what is being used, and have been used for both processes since the 1950s). You will probably end up using double thick wall brass pipe, and split one side of it, so squeezing pressure from the holder's thumb screw can be applied to the carbon within it.
Finally, you need an AC power source that can output about 30 OCV (for this diameter carbon), and that can be dialed down to around 10 amps; unless you have an old Forney welder available, that isn't very likely without changes made to the welding machine.
So, you would probably be better off using a gas torch to braze the wire together.
The reason I happen to know all this stuff is that I'm presently writing a text on the subject. Most people have a low opinion of carbon-arc brazing/welding becuase the equipment and power sources don't match up; this is becuase the process has been irrelavent to modern welding markets for about fifty years.
Today, there is a large potential home hobbyist market for carbon-arc tools, but there is also a complete disconnect between the twin carbon-arc's potential, considering present technology, and commercially available equipment.
Michael Porter
(Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns)
wyn
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I bought a copy of your book and it has been very helpful in making a couple of burners.
I used these to replace the sills on a Hillman Minx back in 1982. This was cheaper than the oxy/acetylene method or a mig welder at the time.
Still handy for a brazing job.
Intensity of the flame is much higher than arc welding so a darker lense will be required in the mask.
Fortunately, mig welder availability has moved on since then.
Still handy for a brazing job.
Intensity of the flame is much higher than arc welding so a darker lense will be required in the mask.
Fortunately, mig welder availability has moved on since then.
brightspark
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ive used one a few times got it from car boot sale for a quid 
mainly just to have a go. there not bad if u havent gas welding gear. a bit clumsy for getting into tight spaces .they can produce a lot of heat .but i think il stick 2 using me bottles 
the carbon rods work out quite dear so if im gouging metal i just whack the welder up to 180 amps and use large welding rods. burn away thats the beauty of old oil filled welders there bomb proof
mainly just to have a go. there not bad if u havent gas welding gear. a bit clumsy for getting into tight spaces .they can produce a lot of heat .but i think il stick 2 using me bottles the carbon rods work out quite dear so if im gouging metal i just whack the welder up to 180 amps and use large welding rods. burn away thats the beauty of old oil filled welders there bomb proof
As said above they produce high radiated energy.
The Nascom computer of 1980 used 2716 2k EPROM chips and a Ultra Violet eraser cost the earth and took 20 minutes.
About 70A, 8mm carbons, 35 seconds at 6 inches off the side of the arc flame warmed them up nicely and erased them completely.
Dave
The Nascom computer of 1980 used 2716 2k EPROM chips and a Ultra Violet eraser cost the earth and took 20 minutes.
About 70A, 8mm carbons, 35 seconds at 6 inches off the side of the arc flame warmed them up nicely and erased them completely.
Dave
I saw a non welder fella some years back delighted with himself because he had got one of like whats in Brighsparks pic above, he said he was going to use a car battery to supply the power and he would show me the weld results. I have yet to see them.
Carbon arc brazing
As i've said i had no problems brazing with these attachments, old rusty exhaust /toolbox/ride on mower deck. I've never tried to use a mig for brazing simply because the arc is struck between the wire and the thin rusty metal your trying to repair. I find carbon arc is less likely to blow holes on thin rusty jobs cos its much like flooding with solder. There are two types of arc rods dont use the ones for gouging. I only use sliding type attachments on an arc welder at about 40/50 amps and after a bit of practice you can get good at it. You know when you got a good flame between rods because you get a nice hum from the arc and away you go. I use a auto face shield to be on safe side. I'm only a diy chap so always working on a budget. it works for me and the type of jobs i do. So does mig/tig and arc it all depends on the job
As i've said i had no problems brazing with these attachments, old rusty exhaust /toolbox/ride on mower deck. I've never tried to use a mig for brazing simply because the arc is struck between the wire and the thin rusty metal your trying to repair. I find carbon arc is less likely to blow holes on thin rusty jobs cos its much like flooding with solder. There are two types of arc rods dont use the ones for gouging. I only use sliding type attachments on an arc welder at about 40/50 amps and after a bit of practice you can get good at it. You know when you got a good flame between rods because you get a nice hum from the arc and away you go. I use a auto face shield to be on safe side. I'm only a diy chap so always working on a budget. it works for me and the type of jobs i do. So does mig/tig and arc it all depends on the job
Mikey98118
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I bought a copy of your book and it has been very helpful in making a couple of burners.
Are you in the UK? Basically, I joined this group in order to exchange information on parts sources, etc., with people outside the USA. Not that I won't correspond with "locals." :-)
But, I'm thinking about writing a supplemental burner & equipment book. This time, I'd like more information on sources people in the UK have to use.
wyn
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Hello Mikey98118,
Most of the pipe fittings etc are readily available.
And refractory materials are easily sourced from pottery supply shops.
Are you looking for more detailed info on actual addresses ?
Another good source of info might be a forum called British blades.
Most of the pipe fittings etc are readily available.
And refractory materials are easily sourced from pottery supply shops.
Are you looking for more detailed info on actual addresses ?
Another good source of info might be a forum called British blades.
Rudi McAnichal
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I have brazed very thin steel with a twin-carbon attachment (including patching a rusty LE Velocette silencer with pieces from an oil can). Three main problems:
(A). It is easy to heat an area about an inch diameter, but not possible to direct the heat onto a small spot, as can be done with a gas torch.
(B). It is easy to braze on a flat surface or an external corner, but as brightspark points out it is difficult to manoeuvre the attachment in a confined space. I found fillet joints very awkward, particularly with full length carbons (slightly easier with short stubs of carbon)
(C). An arc welding helmet makes it harder to judge the metal temperature than when wearing gas welding goggles.
What about single-carbon arc techniques? The topic has been raised before, and SteveTheAngryWelder described brazing with single-carbon, but otherwise there was little response. Old textbooks describe fusion welding with a single carbon and a hand-held filler rod.
“Questions & Answers on Electric Arc Welding” (Buterworths, 1969) says of single-carbon welding: (1) This is the most economical of all welding processes. (2) The technique of using the carbon arc process is easily mastered. (3) When welding thin materials, distortion is negligible.
“The Welding Encyclopedia” (McGraw-Hill, 1947) describes carbon arc welding of aluminium: “The technique for manual carbon-arc welding is similar to that for other metals. While a flux-coated rod is used to supply filler material, improved welding speed and appearance will result if a filler rod having a flux coating thinner than that on a standard metal-arc electrode is employed. The latter, however, is frequently used for the filler material. Metal 1/16in. thick and up to 3/8in. thick is welded commercially by this method. Joint preparation is like that used for gas welding, and rod sizes and welding currents, as shown in Table 1, for metal-arc welding, are also approximately correct for carbon-arc welding. Steel, copper or graphite back-up strips are usually essential for the carbon arc process.”
If these books are to be believed, and a DC stick welder with a single carbon can be used for thin steel or aluminium, this would be very useful to a DIY person, or for anybody who needs to repair a machine quickly in a remote location.
How many people have actually tried single-carbon welding? It would be nice to receive personal experience, rather than hearsay. For myself, I would consider spend a few hundred pounds on an MMA inverter if convinced that a carbon electrode would allow occasional thin sheet and aluminium welding, but I could never justify £1000+ for a really versatile AC TIG machine.
(A). It is easy to heat an area about an inch diameter, but not possible to direct the heat onto a small spot, as can be done with a gas torch.
(B). It is easy to braze on a flat surface or an external corner, but as brightspark points out it is difficult to manoeuvre the attachment in a confined space. I found fillet joints very awkward, particularly with full length carbons (slightly easier with short stubs of carbon)
(C). An arc welding helmet makes it harder to judge the metal temperature than when wearing gas welding goggles.
What about single-carbon arc techniques? The topic has been raised before, and SteveTheAngryWelder described brazing with single-carbon, but otherwise there was little response. Old textbooks describe fusion welding with a single carbon and a hand-held filler rod.
“Questions & Answers on Electric Arc Welding” (Buterworths, 1969) says of single-carbon welding: (1) This is the most economical of all welding processes. (2) The technique of using the carbon arc process is easily mastered. (3) When welding thin materials, distortion is negligible.
“The Welding Encyclopedia” (McGraw-Hill, 1947) describes carbon arc welding of aluminium: “The technique for manual carbon-arc welding is similar to that for other metals. While a flux-coated rod is used to supply filler material, improved welding speed and appearance will result if a filler rod having a flux coating thinner than that on a standard metal-arc electrode is employed. The latter, however, is frequently used for the filler material. Metal 1/16in. thick and up to 3/8in. thick is welded commercially by this method. Joint preparation is like that used for gas welding, and rod sizes and welding currents, as shown in Table 1, for metal-arc welding, are also approximately correct for carbon-arc welding. Steel, copper or graphite back-up strips are usually essential for the carbon arc process.”
If these books are to be believed, and a DC stick welder with a single carbon can be used for thin steel or aluminium, this would be very useful to a DIY person, or for anybody who needs to repair a machine quickly in a remote location.
How many people have actually tried single-carbon welding? It would be nice to receive personal experience, rather than hearsay. For myself, I would consider spend a few hundred pounds on an MMA inverter if convinced that a carbon electrode would allow occasional thin sheet and aluminium welding, but I could never justify £1000+ for a really versatile AC TIG machine.
Mikey98118
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Thanks for the tip. Yes, addreses, or at least well known brand names of stores and other suppliers who handle the specific items needed.
Do you have a UK source for heavy wall capillary tubing, for instance? They're what we use to build gas accelerators for 1/4" & 3/8" burners these days, instead of torch tips. There are such a load of particulars to know that I've decided to try and start thinking UK, instead of just USA.
Have low cost rotary tools (miniature die grinders) flooded the market there, like here? If I were writing Gas Burners today, that's what I'd recommend instead of 4 1/2" angle grinders.
I'm also in the middle of texts about vision enhancement for craft work, home built carbon-arc technology, thermal joining, and jigs & fixtures for the home hobbyist.
So, you can see that details about UK sources for hundreds of products is simply a subject I'll need to deal with quite a bit.
In return, I will give technical details on those subjects to people who are deeply into them.
Mikey98118
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Rudy,
In the past many people used the process; today, very few.
You are not going to judge temperature by color through torch goggles worth beans anyway. Perhaps you meant to state that the view through a welding helmet during carbon-arc work isn't convenient, even as compared to regular arc welding. If you're using a proper shade strength that is true enough. However, if you combine an auto-darken helmet with modern green LED lighting, your view will magically improve.
Fusion welding with a single carbon arc (DCEN and carbon ground similar to a pencil) can be done, even using regular stick electrodes for filler. Braze welding is a better bet, considering all the new filler alloys.
“Questions & Answers on Electric Arc Welding” (Buterworths, 1969) is pretty much correct.
“The Welding Encyclopedia” (McGraw-Hill, 1947) describes carbon arc welding of aluminium" is correct, but slightly out of date; once again, brazing alloys are superior to welding for aluminum, unless you want to do auto-body work; in which case you must oxyacetylene weld to avoid cracking the weld during reshaping.
"If these books are to be believed...quickly in a remote location."
That's right.
Why would you spend big money on a fancy TIG set-up instead of using "scratch-arc" techniques for doing TIG, and employing the same machine for stick and carbon-arc welding?
So, if carbon=arc welding's so hot, why do so many people dislike it? The big stumbling block is voltage. It takes between 35 and 45 OCV to run carbons between 1/8" and 5/16" on an AC machine. DCEN can also come up short on voltage. If your machine has the open circuit voltage to handle the process (or is three-phase), you never notice the problem; otherwise, there will be a lot of cussing and bad thoughts :-)
In the past many people used the process; today, very few.
You are not going to judge temperature by color through torch goggles worth beans anyway. Perhaps you meant to state that the view through a welding helmet during carbon-arc work isn't convenient, even as compared to regular arc welding. If you're using a proper shade strength that is true enough. However, if you combine an auto-darken helmet with modern green LED lighting, your view will magically improve.
Fusion welding with a single carbon arc (DCEN and carbon ground similar to a pencil) can be done, even using regular stick electrodes for filler. Braze welding is a better bet, considering all the new filler alloys.
“Questions & Answers on Electric Arc Welding” (Buterworths, 1969) is pretty much correct.
“The Welding Encyclopedia” (McGraw-Hill, 1947) describes carbon arc welding of aluminium" is correct, but slightly out of date; once again, brazing alloys are superior to welding for aluminum, unless you want to do auto-body work; in which case you must oxyacetylene weld to avoid cracking the weld during reshaping.
"If these books are to be believed...quickly in a remote location."
That's right.
Why would you spend big money on a fancy TIG set-up instead of using "scratch-arc" techniques for doing TIG, and employing the same machine for stick and carbon-arc welding?
So, if carbon=arc welding's so hot, why do so many people dislike it? The big stumbling block is voltage. It takes between 35 and 45 OCV to run carbons between 1/8" and 5/16" on an AC machine. DCEN can also come up short on voltage. If your machine has the open circuit voltage to handle the process (or is three-phase), you never notice the problem; otherwise, there will be a lot of cussing and bad thoughts :-)
Mikey98118
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Mikey98118
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Rudi,
Below are some examples of what can be done with carbon-arc holders. Remember that, when building your own hand-piece, how many positions the carbons can face is strictly up to you. You should also keep in mind that, the forty-five degree angle that the carbon electrodes are usually shown in, is only popular for hard surfacing jobs. Any angle--even nearly parallel--can be used, so long as the carbon tips are so ground as to favor it.
Popular Science (1941) article on construction and use of a twin carbon-arc torch. The torch shown would be the rough looking equivalent of Lincoln’s torch, but in my opinion, more precise in operation. There is also some information on its use, including brazing on expanded sheet metal:
http://books.google.com/books?id=VC...=onepage&q=popular science carbon arc&f=false
Popular Mechanics article on twin carbon-arc torch with resistance circuits built in. While some of the materials used must be updated, this torch would be perfect for a repairman’s toolbox, as it needs no transformer. http://books.google.com/books?id=g9...resnum=6&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Popular Science (1946) article on construction and use of a sliding twin carbon-arc torch. The torch shown is, in my opinion of poor design, but construction of a separate resistance-type power control looks usefull:
http://books.google.com/books?id=_C...resnum=4&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Popular Mechanics (1969) article on use of twin carbon-arcs with 110V welders; good background information, and also shows a small holder: http://books.google.com/books?id=rd...esnum=10&ved=0CDkQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false
A Free set of plans for building a sliding twin carbon-arc torch are posted at: http://www.mnhpva.org/Meetings/2005/june_05/pages/06.html
Below are some examples of what can be done with carbon-arc holders. Remember that, when building your own hand-piece, how many positions the carbons can face is strictly up to you. You should also keep in mind that, the forty-five degree angle that the carbon electrodes are usually shown in, is only popular for hard surfacing jobs. Any angle--even nearly parallel--can be used, so long as the carbon tips are so ground as to favor it.
Popular Science (1941) article on construction and use of a twin carbon-arc torch. The torch shown would be the rough looking equivalent of Lincoln’s torch, but in my opinion, more precise in operation. There is also some information on its use, including brazing on expanded sheet metal:
http://books.google.com/books?id=VC...=onepage&q=popular science carbon arc&f=false
Popular Mechanics article on twin carbon-arc torch with resistance circuits built in. While some of the materials used must be updated, this torch would be perfect for a repairman’s toolbox, as it needs no transformer. http://books.google.com/books?id=g9...resnum=6&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Popular Science (1946) article on construction and use of a sliding twin carbon-arc torch. The torch shown is, in my opinion of poor design, but construction of a separate resistance-type power control looks usefull:
http://books.google.com/books?id=_C...resnum=4&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Popular Mechanics (1969) article on use of twin carbon-arcs with 110V welders; good background information, and also shows a small holder: http://books.google.com/books?id=rd...esnum=10&ved=0CDkQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false
A Free set of plans for building a sliding twin carbon-arc torch are posted at: http://www.mnhpva.org/Meetings/2005/june_05/pages/06.html
deltabravo
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Carbon Arc brazing
Hi all, I own a carbon arc brazer which I use for all manner of brazing. I made the transformer out of an old 35 amp welder. I unwound the secondary coil and tapped it off at 4 different places to get a variable current choice,I also fitted a fan to it. It works fine for me and on the low setting it will solder/unsolder those heavy connectors that normal solder guns won't touch. I get the copper coated electrodes from Jawel my local motor factors. It will even work on a car battery, albeit with a high current drain. I hope this clears up the mystery of the humble carbon arc. Bob.
Hi all, I own a carbon arc brazer which I use for all manner of brazing. I made the transformer out of an old 35 amp welder. I unwound the secondary coil and tapped it off at 4 different places to get a variable current choice,I also fitted a fan to it. It works fine for me and on the low setting it will solder/unsolder those heavy connectors that normal solder guns won't touch. I get the copper coated electrodes from Jawel my local motor factors. It will even work on a car battery, albeit with a high current drain. I hope this clears up the mystery of the humble carbon arc. Bob.
Mikey98118
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- 28
Nice work Bob,
Did you know that miniature carbons are readily available through welding supply dealers in 1/8" and 5/32" diameters? With the tapped transformer you built, adding sleeves to your holder and using the small carbons might be something of a revelation for you.
Also, I am writing a text on home-built carbon-arc equipment, and would love to publish photos (one enterior shot, and one exterior) of your transformer in the book, as an example of creative problem solving. You could send the photos over the net, along with a photo of a signed note of permission to use them. In return, when the book comes out, I'll send you a copy (remember to stay in touch, so I'll have a current shipping address).
Michael Porter (author of Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns)
michael.a.porter@comcast.net
Did you know that miniature carbons are readily available through welding supply dealers in 1/8" and 5/32" diameters? With the tapped transformer you built, adding sleeves to your holder and using the small carbons might be something of a revelation for you.
Also, I am writing a text on home-built carbon-arc equipment, and would love to publish photos (one enterior shot, and one exterior) of your transformer in the book, as an example of creative problem solving. You could send the photos over the net, along with a photo of a signed note of permission to use them. In return, when the book comes out, I'll send you a copy (remember to stay in touch, so I'll have a current shipping address).
Michael Porter (author of Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns)
michael.a.porter@comcast.net
deltabravo
Member
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Carbon Arc brazing unit
Hello Mike, a couple of not very good pics (my son has my proper camera). You are free to publish/copy or do as you please with them as you requested. I do not have M$ outlook so could not send to the site you listed, kind regards, Bob (deltabravo).
Hello Mike, a couple of not very good pics (my son has my proper camera). You are free to publish/copy or do as you please with them as you requested. I do not have M$ outlook so could not send to the site you listed, kind regards, Bob (deltabravo).
