Tino
Member
- Messages
- 457
- Location
- G.B. Lancashire
Dam it!£35! Chucked mine in the bin about thirty years ago!If carbon arc was the only way to weld metal, to be honest I would have given up welding and used rivets.
- Thread starter blueprint
- Start date
Dam it!£35! Chucked mine in the bin about thirty years ago!If carbon arc was the only way to weld metal, to be honest I would have given up welding and used rivets.
Mikey98118
Member
- Messages
- 28
If you've read the previous posts, then you know that I strongly advocate building and using miniature carbon arc equipment; that said, your best move is to buy a Tirrill burner off eBay to do your heating; if you already had a miniature carbon arc holder, and a suitable power source, I'd say go for it. However, it isn't smart to build a rocket from scratch, when all you need is a slingshot. Heck, you could probably tape a butane lighter in the on position, set it on a table, and do your brazing job. What you really need is to build a fixture to hold the wires steady while you braze.
Mikey98118
Member
- Messages
- 28
deltabravo,
Sorry for the slow reply; been writing like mad on a different topic.
There is time to wait for better photos, but the "not very good pics" might be fine too. The photos are to be inspirational; not educational. If you're not camera shy, your son could even take one of you fiddling with the equipment's innards.
You could sign your permission to use it on the back (lightly in pencil), along with the date it was taken. What I'm really after is what the magazines call "human interest." Simply seeing that someone else has already done something is worth a hundred pages of instruction when it comes to motivating people. It makes no sense to me, but having seen it happen, I find no point in arguing against it :-)
Sorry for the slow reply; been writing like mad on a different topic.
There is time to wait for better photos, but the "not very good pics" might be fine too. The photos are to be inspirational; not educational. If you're not camera shy, your son could even take one of you fiddling with the equipment's innards.
You could sign your permission to use it on the back (lightly in pencil), along with the date it was taken. What I'm really after is what the magazines call "human interest." Simply seeing that someone else has already done something is worth a hundred pages of instruction when it comes to motivating people. It makes no sense to me, but having seen it happen, I find no point in arguing against it :-)
Healey2010
New Member
- Messages
- 2
Hi All, bought a SIP carbon arc welding torch at a carboot sale in the UK last year & returned home to Aussie to try. It works well but I have used all the rods up that came with it & now I am having trouble finding rods that work. I thought I was on a winner when I bought some 6mm & 8 mm copper coated carbon rods used nowdays for gouging from my local welding store. However they don't work, can't get a suitable arc no matter what amperage I use. After asking about apparently these rods are for use with DC current and not AC. Anyone have any thoughts on this & if I need AC rods where can I get some or where can I get the genuine article? I will be in the UK again next month.
Mikey98118
Member
- Messages
- 28
I'm an advocate of arc brazing, but just becuase we can do a thing doesn't mean we should. 2mm wire is so small you could heat it to brazing temps with a blue flame butane lighter. Why complicate the process?
Dragonetti
The Alchemist changes steel to £s
- Messages
- 17
How to carbon arc weld
I bought a carbon arc spot welder attachment for my mma welder last year, off the proverbial ebay. It uses a single soft core carbon rod to produce a small arc to fuse the metal together whilst you push against it with everything you've got.↲
It does actually work (surprise etc. . .) guite well for re-spotting body work.↲
Howeve, I digress, the main thing is that. If I remember correctly, he also sells the type of rod you require. I will try to find the instruction manual as I think it has a phone number and email address.↲
Rgdz,↲
Ron
I bought a carbon arc spot welder attachment for my mma welder last year, off the proverbial ebay. It uses a single soft core carbon rod to produce a small arc to fuse the metal together whilst you push against it with everything you've got.↲
It does actually work (surprise etc. . .) guite well for re-spotting body work.↲
Howeve, I digress, the main thing is that. If I remember correctly, he also sells the type of rod you require. I will try to find the instruction manual as I think it has a phone number and email address.↲
Rgdz,↲
Ron
Healey2010
New Member
- Messages
- 2
How to Carbon Arc Weld
Thanks for that Dranonetti it would be great if I had an email address for obtaining some AC rods.
Any thoughts on whether DC gouging carbon rods would work on a DC inverter welder?
Thanks for that Dranonetti it would be great if I had an email address for obtaining some AC rods.
Any thoughts on whether DC gouging carbon rods would work on a DC inverter welder?
Dragonetti
The Alchemist changes steel to £s
- Messages
- 17
How to carbon arc weld
Yes, I would imagine they would work but only for gouging. They are too hard with a high resistance to work successfully for brazing.↲
I have a lovely little rothenberger propane needle torch which works well with 1.5mm wire. I also have a bernzomatic which despite the cost of gas, I still find it useful. I do seem to remember a kit that allowed it to be used with the large rented bottles of propane and oxygen, and could be worth considering as an alternative.
Yes, I would imagine they would work but only for gouging. They are too hard with a high resistance to work successfully for brazing.↲
I have a lovely little rothenberger propane needle torch which works well with 1.5mm wire. I also have a bernzomatic which despite the cost of gas, I still find it useful. I do seem to remember a kit that allowed it to be used with the large rented bottles of propane and oxygen, and could be worth considering as an alternative.
Dragonetti
The Alchemist changes steel to £s
- Messages
- 17
How to carbon arc weld? Help ne
D's welding supplies on ebay still do the type of carbon rod you need. Make sure you ask for carbon brazing rods, and not welding rods as these are for gouging.
Rgdz,
Ron
D's welding supplies on ebay still do the type of carbon rod you need. Make sure you ask for carbon brazing rods, and not welding rods as these are for gouging.
Rgdz,
Ron
zardoz
Old school Socialist
- Messages
- 2,217
- Location
- Chetser, UK
I have seen pics of carbon rods taken from old batteries and wrapped in tinfoil. Apparently it actually does work. Wouldnt recomend it unless you are an experienced tinkerer or live in the third world where people wind there own welders and generally know what they are about.
Mikey98118
Member
- Messages
- 28
Okay, here is the long and...the longer of carbon-arc rods:-)
So called gouging or air-arc carbons are indeed the very same rods that became popular for carbon-arc brazing back in the fifties; the height of the arc brazing era. Arc brazing is normally done with DC carbons on AC machines, but not just any old AC machines; they have to output at least forty-five volts for a typical 5/16" carbon diameter (forty to forty-five volts for a 1/4"). Most modern stick welders are deliberatly made for lower output voltage as a safety measure. There are also AC carbons which are not only expensive, but meant for AC gouging, not brazing; they normally short out on an AC power source if run in an arc torch as a pair. Finally, there are theatrical carbons (also quite expensive) which are matched with offseting potentials for DC arc lamps.
Or you can wind a tap in your secondary coil, to increase output voltage for arc brazing with the customary DC carbons. If you get lucky finding the magic carbons again, I'd love to hear all about them.
So called gouging or air-arc carbons are indeed the very same rods that became popular for carbon-arc brazing back in the fifties; the height of the arc brazing era. Arc brazing is normally done with DC carbons on AC machines, but not just any old AC machines; they have to output at least forty-five volts for a typical 5/16" carbon diameter (forty to forty-five volts for a 1/4"). Most modern stick welders are deliberatly made for lower output voltage as a safety measure. There are also AC carbons which are not only expensive, but meant for AC gouging, not brazing; they normally short out on an AC power source if run in an arc torch as a pair. Finally, there are theatrical carbons (also quite expensive) which are matched with offseting potentials for DC arc lamps.
Or you can wind a tap in your secondary coil, to increase output voltage for arc brazing with the customary DC carbons. If you get lucky finding the magic carbons again, I'd love to hear all about them.
Seattle Smitty
Member
- Messages
- 15
A carbon arc torch is just another tool. An old tool, and there are new tools that will do most things better than carbon arc did those things. Now, do you have to do each job with the best currently-available tool, or can you do lots of jobs with the tools you've had around for years and years?
Maybe fifteen years ago I was in the middle of doing a welding job for a customer twenty miles from home when my engine-driven welder died. I had seen a stone-age-simple little old Lincoln 180A buzz-box in a nearby used tool shop, so I bought it for $50 cash and used it to finish the job. It has sat at home since, plugged-in and HANDY. It's not my primary welding tool by a long shot, yet sometimes I use it just because every non-welder and wannabe-welder is certain that you have to have wire-feed or TIG for everything, so I SHOW them how a faded and rusty 55-year-old stick welder, easily obtained cheaply or even free, will build trailers and ladder racks and gates and work tables, etc., etc.. Even though I don't use it often, I bet I've made $3000 with that crummy little stick welder, just as I made thousands of dollars with a Sears buzz-box I bought new when I learned to weld forty years ago.
It's the same with an arc-torch. Just about nobody NEEDS one, and unless you run across one at a yard sale or a pawn shop, it's only worth making one if you find doing so more ammusing than watching the usual cr@p on TV. It's as "obsolete" as the little low-OCV buzz-box it came with as an accessory. It's as "obsolete" as a framing hammer, now that everybody has nail-guns. As "obsolete" as using a broom instead of a shop-vac.
But . . . BUT!!! . . . , IF YOU ARE A CONTRARIAN (as I am), YOU HAVE TO GET AN ARC-TORCH!!! or MAKE one (which might be even more contrarian
).
(Hey, Mikey, looks like we are neighbors; might be we could get together and chew the fat sometime later this summer, if you want.)
P.S. My best recent contrarian gesture was picking up another old welder. Stick-only
. Built in 1954. Powered by a flathead engine, with an oil-bath air filter and magneto ignition, covered with flaking, faded grey paint and sitting on a rusty trailer. But here's the kicker . . . most welders who have used them say that the Lincoln SA-200 is the best welder ever made!! And Lincoln STILL MAKES THEM
.
Oh, again to Mikey; the numbers you're giving look like AMPERAGE settings. These accessory arc-torches came with machines like Forneys that were meant to be used on small farms, and maybe put out half the OCV that you suggested. I once used a flimsy little accessory arc-torch, scissor-type, that came with a 115V, nominally 20-70A Sears buzz-box about the size of a toaster. Pretty crappy welder, but the arc-torch ran well, as I recall. I know where it is, and should talk the owner out of it, just to add another nutty show-and-tell to the collection.
Maybe fifteen years ago I was in the middle of doing a welding job for a customer twenty miles from home when my engine-driven welder died. I had seen a stone-age-simple little old Lincoln 180A buzz-box in a nearby used tool shop, so I bought it for $50 cash and used it to finish the job. It has sat at home since, plugged-in and HANDY. It's not my primary welding tool by a long shot, yet sometimes I use it just because every non-welder and wannabe-welder is certain that you have to have wire-feed or TIG for everything, so I SHOW them how a faded and rusty 55-year-old stick welder, easily obtained cheaply or even free, will build trailers and ladder racks and gates and work tables, etc., etc.. Even though I don't use it often, I bet I've made $3000 with that crummy little stick welder, just as I made thousands of dollars with a Sears buzz-box I bought new when I learned to weld forty years ago.
It's the same with an arc-torch. Just about nobody NEEDS one, and unless you run across one at a yard sale or a pawn shop, it's only worth making one if you find doing so more ammusing than watching the usual cr@p on TV. It's as "obsolete" as the little low-OCV buzz-box it came with as an accessory. It's as "obsolete" as a framing hammer, now that everybody has nail-guns. As "obsolete" as using a broom instead of a shop-vac.
But . . . BUT!!! . . . , IF YOU ARE A CONTRARIAN (as I am), YOU HAVE TO GET AN ARC-TORCH!!! or MAKE one (which might be even more contrarian
).(Hey, Mikey, looks like we are neighbors; might be we could get together and chew the fat sometime later this summer, if you want.)
P.S. My best recent contrarian gesture was picking up another old welder. Stick-only
. Built in 1954. Powered by a flathead engine, with an oil-bath air filter and magneto ignition, covered with flaking, faded grey paint and sitting on a rusty trailer. But here's the kicker . . . most welders who have used them say that the Lincoln SA-200 is the best welder ever made!! And Lincoln STILL MAKES THEM.Oh, again to Mikey; the numbers you're giving look like AMPERAGE settings. These accessory arc-torches came with machines like Forneys that were meant to be used on small farms, and maybe put out half the OCV that you suggested. I once used a flimsy little accessory arc-torch, scissor-type, that came with a 115V, nominally 20-70A Sears buzz-box about the size of a toaster. Pretty crappy welder, but the arc-torch ran well, as I recall. I know where it is, and should talk the owner out of it, just to add another nutty show-and-tell to the collection.
Mikey98118
Member
- Messages
- 28
Smitty,
Look again. I've done the research and those old Forneys and Marquetts put out 80 OCV. Lincoln also had 79 OCV on some of their welders for decades.
Hobart Stickmate LX Welders, both the AC and AC/DC versions, feature an 80 open circuit volt maximum, and high/low power taps. Some of the cheap imported welders also feature high output voltage (in the forties, which is plenty for rods up to 3/16").
There are a couple of groups of us old timers who get together for coffee and breakfast upon occasion. I also have people come by from other areas for the same purposes. We can work something out in a week or so; right now the doctor gods have me in their clutches. Give a call, and at the very least, I will drop by. There is no one better for contrariness then old welders (42years of it).
Michael Porter
206 722 8326
Look again. I've done the research and those old Forneys and Marquetts put out 80 OCV. Lincoln also had 79 OCV on some of their welders for decades.
Hobart Stickmate LX Welders, both the AC and AC/DC versions, feature an 80 open circuit volt maximum, and high/low power taps. Some of the cheap imported welders also feature high output voltage (in the forties, which is plenty for rods up to 3/16").
There are a couple of groups of us old timers who get together for coffee and breakfast upon occasion. I also have people come by from other areas for the same purposes. We can work something out in a week or so; right now the doctor gods have me in their clutches. Give a call, and at the very least, I will drop by. There is no one better for contrariness then old welders (42years of it).
Michael Porter
206 722 8326
Seattle Smitty
Member
- Messages
- 15
Just back; I forgot which site was discussing this (no, no, it's called "Oldtimers' Disease," not that other stuff).
Hey, I'm as contrary as any other old man, Mikey, and I recall that a lot of the home/farm welders didn't put out more than about 28 OCV. Low open circuit voltage is what gave those welders their not-very-stable arcs that tended to make rods hard to start and easy to stick. I think it's why E7018-AC was developed, since the low OCV machines wouldn't run lo-hy rods very successfully. But maybe we're talking about different eras; I'm thinking of mid-Fifties on, when manufacturers started thinking about keeping us safe from zapping our dumb selves.
I guess I should haul out one of the old machines and measure the output.
Did I say (yeah, OldTimers', again!) I talked to a vender of movie projector carbons, made in India, and he was going to send me samples. He never did, so I'll have to remember to phone him again. He didn't know whether his electrodes were baked carbon (cheap, more likely to transfer bits of carbon into the weld puddle), or pure graphite.
Others have mentioned that arc-air electrodes don't work so well in a twin-carbon torch. Maybe this is partly because they tried using 1/4" carbons at too-high amperages. One guy claimed that drilling a hole through the centerline of the carbons made them work a lot better; surely he was drilling carbons bigger than 1/4".
I got a wild hair on this subject a couple of years ago and web-searched and emailed all over trying to find current sources of equipment and supplies for manual carbon arc. Australia, Japan, China, Italy, South Africa, India, but got either no response or confusion, or, "We don't know but somebody might." I had other things to do, and enough carbons left for my own occasional uses. And frankly, "everybody" seems to have decided that carbon arc is for silly people who have nothing better to do. They're probably at least half right. I'd thought about getting help setting up a dedicated carbon-arc site or blog for us few contrarians, collecting all the old info and tables of settings for the process, and getting my pal, the ace photographer, to shoot some action footage of the process. But maybe that IS silly. Any of us that wants to use an arc-torch can surely do so on our own, and to h#ll with all the thoroughly modern scoffers.
Hey, I'm as contrary as any other old man, Mikey
, and I recall that a lot of the home/farm welders didn't put out more than about 28 OCV. Low open circuit voltage is what gave those welders their not-very-stable arcs that tended to make rods hard to start and easy to stick. I think it's why E7018-AC was developed, since the low OCV machines wouldn't run lo-hy rods very successfully. But maybe we're talking about different eras; I'm thinking of mid-Fifties on, when manufacturers started thinking about keeping us safe from zapping our dumb selves. I guess I should haul out one of the old machines and measure the output.
Did I say (yeah, OldTimers', again!) I talked to a vender of movie projector carbons, made in India, and he was going to send me samples. He never did, so I'll have to remember to phone him again. He didn't know whether his electrodes were baked carbon (cheap, more likely to transfer bits of carbon into the weld puddle), or pure graphite.
Others have mentioned that arc-air electrodes don't work so well in a twin-carbon torch. Maybe this is partly because they tried using 1/4" carbons at too-high amperages. One guy claimed that drilling a hole through the centerline of the carbons made them work a lot better; surely he was drilling carbons bigger than 1/4".
I got a wild hair on this subject a couple of years ago and web-searched and emailed all over trying to find current sources of equipment and supplies for manual carbon arc. Australia, Japan, China, Italy, South Africa, India, but got either no response or confusion, or, "We don't know but somebody might." I had other things to do, and enough carbons left for my own occasional uses. And frankly, "everybody" seems to have decided that carbon arc is for silly people who have nothing better to do. They're probably at least half right. I'd thought about getting help setting up a dedicated carbon-arc site or blog for us few contrarians, collecting all the old info and tables of settings for the process, and getting my pal, the ace photographer, to shoot some action footage of the process. But maybe that IS silly. Any of us that wants to use an arc-torch can surely do so on our own, and to h#ll with all the thoroughly modern scoffers.
Last edited:
Seattle Smitty
Member
- Messages
- 15
Mikey!
Craigslist, Seattle, tools, carbon arc. Fifty bucks, and it's like-new. And cute!!
Craigslist, Seattle, tools, carbon arc. Fifty bucks, and it's like-new. And cute!!
I've returned to experiments with carbon arc rods. The following rod was used to form an arc from metal-rod and rod-rod. It was powered at 100 to 130A at the standard buzz box voltage of up to 48VAC.
I expected the rod to burn up slowly from the tip back, but the entire length has also eroded back, up to where it reached my electrical connection and holder.
Is such erosion normal? Perhaps the rods are an inferior type or perhaps the current was too high for the rod diameter - about 1cm at the start.
After a few seconds for each use, the entire rod glowed red hot and a shower of sparks fell away gently from the rod - that was the erosion process, I guess. Is this normal or what's wrong?
I expected the rod to burn up slowly from the tip back, but the entire length has also eroded back, up to where it reached my electrical connection and holder.
Is such erosion normal? Perhaps the rods are an inferior type or perhaps the current was too high for the rod diameter - about 1cm at the start.
After a few seconds for each use, the entire rod glowed red hot and a shower of sparks fell away gently from the rod - that was the erosion process, I guess. Is this normal or what's wrong?
Thanks for that. I also wondered if I left too much rod extening beyond the connection point, thereby increasing the amount of rod which glows red and erodes back. I used the carbon arc to cut/gouge a 2" diameter hole in steel plate about 3mm thick, so I thought that more power would offer greater cutting potential.
Hi
I am not sure if anybody is still interested in carbon arc brazing, but I have just bought one new from eBay. It is many years since I have used one but looking forward to it arriving. They also sell the special rods. If anybody is interested I will post the link
I am not sure if anybody is still interested in carbon arc brazing, but I have just bought one new from eBay. It is many years since I have used one but looking forward to it arriving. They also sell the special rods. If anybody is interested I will post the link
