Man-cave diesel heater 12V supply......

[JOEPRO]

Just for clarity, I've actually been Webasto trained, and know the manufacturer's guidance.

If anybody wishes to ignore the manufacturer's guidance, that is entirely up to them.

Whilst I appreciate China has taken an expired patent from Webasto and copied the heater core do any of these in terms of how they are packaged or used in home garages bear any resemblance to the original Webasto instalation instructions anymore?

The Webasto heaters were intended for installation as heaters for sleeper lorry cabs etc. These are now different applications and circumstances used in a home garage.

Once sleeping risk is removed and there is a digital screen and fault finding system the risks are considerably reduced IMO.

 

[m_c]

Whilst I appreciate China has taken an expired patent from Webasto and copied the heater core do any of these in terms of how they are packaged or used in home garages bear any resemblance to the original Webasto instalation instructions anymore?

The Webasto heaters were intended for installation as heaters for sleeper lorry cabs etc. These are now different applications and circumstances used in a home garage.

Once sleeping risk is removed and there is a digital screen and fault finding system the risks are considerably reduced IMO.

As I said, you're free to do what you like in your own property, but you seem to have an issue with anybody stating the manufacturer's guidance.

 

[JOEPRO]

As I said, you're free to do what you like in your own property, but you seem to have an issue with anybody stating the manufacturer's guidance.

No issue, that's fine thanks. Webasto don't make these heaters they are made in China.

 

[m_c]

No issue, that's fine thanks. Webasto don't make these heaters they are made in China.

So with that logic, if I buy a gas boiler from China, I can ignore all the UK/EU installation requirements?

 

[DAPPH]

I have one of the ones fizzy linked to, and its very civilized, you plug it in 220v, set a temperature on the lcd display panel and it lights itself automatically and all sorts of modern touches & you can buy the low fume fuel for them everywhere but it gives me headaches after a while using one indoors or in the workshop so I abandoned it to a storage shed a few years back. What drew me to the chinese diesel heaters was that they externally vent, and I don't have headaches running it, although the whole needing a 12v psu etc is a pain. I suppose it depends on how airtight your workspace is.

Slim, experience suggests your fan will stick or make weird noises again now its done it once, at the most annoying moments possible. It might be a idea to investigate getting a replacement fan while you have the luxury of not being in a rush to source one, as having a new spare fan next to it ready will nearly almost guarantee that the fan will never go wrong again.

Check the PSU fan blades for dust build up , I've cleaned various small cooling fans and got a much quieter life as a result .

 

[DAPPH]

Let’s be honest 4kW+ is exactly the same as that same amount of heat from another source. If fitted properly, with proper and adequate insulation, along with effective draught exclusion, I would expect the space would be heated within a reasonable time period.

On the other side, if heating cold blocks in a leaky (poor insulation, leaking air) garage (uninsulated steel door(s)?) drawing in combustion air from inside and cold (to be warmed) from outside - one cannot expect them to warm the space efficiently.

Burning half a litre (some don’t even deliver the full amount claimed) requires a given volume of air. Drawing in cold air from outside would be horrendously inefficient ax the same amount of warmed air must leak out.

You may have your Tickers in a Nwist thinking that .
Think or research Spitfire 's impressive gain in max speed by spray injection of plain water in the air intake, the water cooled the ingoing air thus making it more dense therefore richer in oxygen for the given volume . Which in turn assisted in a better more efficient burn of the fuel that gave the amazing increase of power.

 

[DAPPH]

My garage is rendered walls etc and draught proof doors. I use a 2kw electric fan heater at times and feel the heat from it over a couple of hour period.

I have ordered a digital room temperature gauge and humidity. So I'll put that up and see that I'm not hallucinating again.

What is your roof made of and is it sealed around the walls , How well does your door fit >

My mancupboard is built as3 inch cavity wall in 3 inch concrete blocks mortar sealed to to the kings span insulated plastisol insulated roof sheeting .ick Internal size about 11 foot wide by 22 feet long 8 feet at the back wall sloping up to 10 feet at the front where there is an insulated roller shutter .
At setting 6 with the roller fully down and sealed to the floor by the rubber gasket strip it's a matter of minutes before it I have to drop the temp down from setting 6 to setting 3 to shown the thermostat registering from 19 oC to 16 oC .
Exhaust is vented outside five metres away from where the fresh air is pulled in to the heater from outside ,,no recycling fume laden hot air . There is also a gentle through flow of fresh air to remove soldering & welding fumes etc. aided of course by the heated clean fresh air .
It has only had a few minus 3 oC days nights to cope with , could you thermal efficiency need sorting .

 

[JOEPRO]

So with that logic, if I buy a gas boiler from China, I can ignore all the UK/EU installation requirements?

The logic is I followed the changlish installation instructions that came with mine to the letter which show the exhaust going to outside and silencer bolted to wall. It did not call for air inlet to be taken though wall

Now if I was using mine as a cab heater then different story and air inlet would be taken to outside also regardless as additional safety measures.

I am very happy with my installation and it is fit for purpose for my intended use in my large garage when I am supervising it and awake at all times.

Not to interject common sense into this debate but there are much larger output diesel heaters which can be used with no exhaust at all within a garage setting In comparison 4kw with exhaust to outside is pretty safe.

 

[not done it yet]

Whilst I appreciate China has taken an expired patent from Webasto and copied the heater core do any of these in terms of how they are packaged or used in home garages bear any resemblance to the original Webasto instalation instructions anymore?

Perfectly applicable, if the heater is used in the same way. If anyone is suggesting that the chinese provide anything like a comprehensive installation and operation guide the the originals did, they are mistaken.

Neither of those two companies allowed ‘cowboy’ installations - no third party installers, other than trained professionals. Unfortunately every man and his dog have been putting up youtube videos of installations of the chinese knock-offs, contravening the most basic of the safety principles. Carbon monoxide is an odourless, tasteless and colourless gas which is extremely toxic to life.

Lets be honest, there are many that still think there are both 8 and 5kW machines on the market - utilising the same dimensions, same pump and same fans. They don’t have a clue! Why should anyone think those individuals are competent, in any way shape or form, to advise on installing and using these heaters - if they don’t even know what they have in their possession? At the vey least they are easily hoodwinked.

 

[not done it yet]

Not to interject common sense into this debate but there are much larger output diesel heaters which can be used with no exhaust at all within a garage setting In comparison 4kw with exhaust to outside is pretty safe.

Common sense? Do you know of anyone who would advocate running one of those heaters in an enclosed space? We should all know that one way of committing suicide is to run a car engine in an enclosed space. Man caves are not usually ventilated with fans if they require heating.

 

[JOEPRO]

Perfectly applicable, if the heater is used in the same way. If anyone is suggesting that the chinese provide anything like a comprehensive installation and operation guide the the originals did, they are mistaken.

Neither of those two companies allowed ‘cowboy’ installations - no third party installers, other than trained professionals. Unfortunately every man and his dog have been putting up youtube videos of installations of the chinese knock-offs, contravening the most basic of the safety principles. Carbon monoxide is an odourless, tasteless and colourless gas which is extremely toxic to life.

Lets be honest, there are many that still think there are both 8 and 5kW machines on the market - utilising the same dimensions, same pump and same fans. They don’t have a clue! Why should anyone think those individuals are competent, in any way shape or form, to advise on installing and using these heaters - if they don’t even know what they have in their possession? At the vey least they are easily hoodwinked.

I'm not commenting on any one else's installation or credentials just my own.

I'm sure there are many dangerous installations out there no doubt!

 

[JOEPRO]

Common sense? Do you know of anyone who would advocate running one of those heaters in an enclosed space? We should all know that one way of committing suicide is to run a car engine in an enclosed space. Man caves are not usually ventilated with fans if they require heating.

Gotcha - no one ever runs these heaters in their garage with the doors closed in winter. Makes sense

Please only use these heaters in a large well ventilated space and with correct safety measures and PPE in place at all times. Agreed

 

[Kayos]

Chinese heaters always get a strong, polarised response

Speaking as someone who has been involved with fuel burning appliances, and someone who has been involved with CO related deaths (investigations) there is some terrible, misinformed and downright dangerous advice out there and even in this thread

Exhaust, outside, no questions. In reality having it near an open garage door is probably ok, but not recommended

Combustion air, again it really needs to be from outside. You can take it from the room but then you need vents at high and low level. 5cm2 of vent per KW heat input low level and 10cm2 of vent per KW heat input at high level.

Given this, a 30mm hole to get fresh air from outside is looking like a good idea now....

Heating air should be within the room, but that is just common sense

Yes, I will expect to be told in detail why I am wrong, but I don't care.

When you have had to step over a dead body to isolate and remove a DIY installed gas fire (once the fire brigade declare it safe, the appliance is removed before the coroner goes in) it focuses the mind

I had one of the all in one heaters in the D2, exhaust and combustion intake went outside, it made the install easier than doing it any other way

 

[JOEPRO]

Thank you all for the advice.

On carefully re reading this thread I realise I am wrong and I will no longer use my Chinese heater until such times as it is made safe.

Combustion air can be taken from outside so I'll do that.

Can't be too safe!

 

[JOEPRO]

How far apart do the intake air and exhaust outlet points need to be?

 

[Kayos]

Thank you all for the advice.

On carefully re reading this thread I realise I am wrong and I will no longer use my Chinese heater until such times as it is made safe.

Combustion air can be taken from outside so I'll do that.

Can't be too safe!

You do whatever you want, this forum is incredibly popular and often ends up at the top of Google searches

The purpose of my post is for those searching who may land here

 

[Kayos]

How far apart do the intake air and exhaust outlet points need to be?

For gas appliances BS5440 states 300mm, most oil/kerosene regs are based on the gas regs so I'd take that as a start point

 

[voipio]

Carbon monoxide is an odourless, tasteless and colourless gas which is extremely toxic to life.

But, in the right places in the body, and in very small amounts, it might actually do some good. There is evidence to suggest that CO is a neurotransmitter:

Carbon monoxide: a gas that modulates nociception - PubMed

Carbon monoxide (CO) has been recognized to act as an atypical neurotransmitter or neuromodulator in the nervous system and to be involved in a wide variety of neuronal activities. Several lines of evidence suggest that CO may play a role through multiple mechanisms in nociception processing...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Gasotransmitter - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oh, and just to add cyanide to the mix:

Cyanide emerges as an endogenous mammalian gasotransmitter

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[JOEPRO]

But, in the right places in the body, and in very small amounts, it might actually do some good. There is evidence to suggest that CO is a neurotransmitter:

Carbon monoxide: a gas that modulates nociception - PubMed

Carbon monoxide (CO) has been recognized to act as an atypical neurotransmitter or neuromodulator in the nervous system and to be involved in a wide variety of neuronal activities. Several lines of evidence suggest that CO may play a role through multiple mechanisms in nociception processing...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Only on the Mig Welding forum do debates go full circle

 

[Kayos]

But, in the right places in the body, and in very small amounts, it might actually do some good. There is evidence to suggest that CO is a neurotransmitter:

Carbon monoxide: a gas that modulates nociception - PubMed

Carbon monoxide (CO) has been recognized to act as an atypical neurotransmitter or neuromodulator in the nervous system and to be involved in a wide variety of neuronal activities. Several lines of evidence suggest that CO may play a role through multiple mechanisms in nociception processing...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Really!

CO is taken up by the hemoglobin in the blood 600 times more readily than oxygen, creating a carboxyhemoglobin, a toxic product that does not give up it's tiny oxygen content, at even small concentrations CO is deadly