MOT Sill Repair, help needed (with pics)

[bert]

looks good to me, better than most garages will do

 

[earthman]

There is no way I would take a vehicle out on the road I'd just 'rebuilt' with little or no protection from the environment, especially at this time of year.
If the testing station wanted to see the work 'clean' on the retest then that's fine if they actually inform me at the original test, but it will be painted, if not undersealed.

My testing station has never asked it of me but I do know of a Metro owner (that's how long I've been using them) that was told that the work would have to be inspected so leave out the appropriate carpets and trim!

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too, that were the whole point of my question really. If you took it to another station for a fresh pair of eyes to look at the vehicle, how would they know anyway.

 

[beebee]

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too, that were the whole point of my question really. If you took it to another station for a fresh pair of eyes to look at the vehicle, how would they know anyway.

In my experience, most MOT testers aren't really that bothered if it's painted or not,as long as you aren't trying to hide a bad job by caking it in several coats of thick underseal, it's unlikely they would send you away & scape any paint/underseal off again. I always put, at least a coat of red oxide on freshly welded metal !

 

[Garthster]

Car went ion for MOT yesterday and failed because I only plug welded the bottom flange (where the inner and outer sills meet). It needs to be fully seam welded. There were some conflicting remarks in here so I thought I'd just clarify that.

Sorted it yesterday afternoon so should be good to pass at some point this week :-)

Thanks for all the reply's.

 

[octo0072000]

welding

the reason if failed is because it was a repaired panel not a replaced panel
if you fitted a full sill then the bottom edge could be spot /plug welded as per factory so if in doubt fully seam weld it
and as from jan lots of new mot/vosa laws come in only advisory till march then fully part of the system

 

[octo0072000]

mot tester needs to be able to see it's fully welded that's all if it's total covered in thick tar under seal so he can't see the welding
he can either fail it or ask you to remove the under seal so he can see the repair is fully welded coat of red oxide would be OK

sorry that bit is not quite right if the tester cant see the weld because of thick tar filler etc he can refuse to test it and ask you to remove it so he/she can see it's fully welded stupid law

 

[Sean]

Thats a bit harsh considering the original was spotted along there - but in the end its up to the way the individual tester interprets the rules.
Still no great loss, and nice work BTW

we (2cv club) are having difficulties with VOSA as the new regs for MOT specify that a Hi beam warning light is now testable ( amongst other things)despite our cars not having one fitted originally.

Sean

 

[octo0072000]

mot/vosa

Thats a bit harsh considering the original was spotted along there - but in the end its up to the way the individual tester interprets the rules.
Still no great loss, and nice work BTW

we (2cv club) are having difficulties with VOSA as the new regs for MOT specify that a Hi beam warning light is now testable ( amongst other things)despite our cars not having one fitted originally.

Sean

if it's not fitted as original they can't test it or fail it for it

ok i got a bollocking from the MOT people years ago when i was testing

i failed a fiat 500 on a red certificate as dangerous because both gearbox mountings has broken away with the little 500 the only thing that holds the engine and gearbox in 2 gearbox mountings and one engine mount and 2 drive shafts
so if the 1 engine mount broke the whole lot is on the floor

MOT answer was you should have refused to test it
and i had to go on another MOT testing course this is in the 80s
so how would you feel if the car in front of you dropped the engine and box on the floor in front of you at 30mph not nice

 

[Wozzaaah]

Car went ion for MOT yesterday and failed because I only plug welded the bottom flange (where the inner and outer sills meet). It needs to be fully seam welded. There were some conflicting remarks in here so I thought I'd just clarify that.

Sorted it yesterday afternoon so should be good to pass at some point this week :-)

Thanks for all the reply's.

the reason if failed is because it was a repaired panel not a replaced panel
if you fitted a full sill then the bottom edge could be spot /plug welded as per factory so if in doubt fully seam weld it
and as from jan lots of new mot/vosa laws come in only advisory till march then fully part of the system

Thats a bit harsh considering the original was spotted along there - but in the end its up to the way the individual tester interprets the rules.
Still no great loss, and nice work BTW

we (2cv club) are having difficulties with VOSA as the new regs for MOT specify that a Hi beam warning light is now testable ( amongst other things)despite our cars not having one fitted originally.

Sean

Methinks the tester needs to have a proper read of the tester's manual.
Regardless of whether it's a full panel or a patch, spot/plug welds are acceptable where they originally were, provided the defective part has been fully removed, i.e. you're not patching over the top.
Looking at the photos, the OP has done that as there's nothing left of the inner, middle and outer sill panels in the area that was repaired.
It's very clearly worded, I'd be very tempted to print if off and wave it in his face.

 

[Sean]

if it's not fitted as original they can't test it or fail it for it

but the Vosa information states that after the 1sr April '86 ALL cars should have one.
from our own forum

Had an entertaining discussion at the MOT station this afternoon when I took one of the Dyanes in for its annual checkup.

It seems that someone in the 2CV world has been stirring things at VOSA, since an item from a document handed out at a recent seminar for MOT testers reads as follows;

“An inspection of the main beam warning lamp is included in the test from January 2012 and it was thought that this would be fairly straightforward as the regulations state that vehicles first used on or after 1st April 1986 must have one.

Then a Citroen 2CV enthusiast threw a spanner in the works by pointing out that they didn’t have one. It transpires that 2CVs were produced until 1990 and after some research we discovered that there were some manufactured before but first used after the ’first used’ date which didn’t have one.

To make life easier for NTs, we have agreed with DfT that all 2CVs first used after 1st April 1986 without a warning light should not be failed for that reason, but if one is fitted, it is testable.”

Tbh, I don't think that they have contacted the correct source, since the main beam and indicator warning lights were never fitted to 2CVs destined for the UK market, although the wiring is there for those markets where they did do the job properly.
Maybe they asked Citroen?

Ken

and another is failure as there is no indicator tell lale the repeater can is fitted in such a way as there is an audible "ping" but some testers look for the green light, when "an audible or visual warning" is required

You are up to the discretion of the individual tester - sometimes unfortunatley. Worth finding one that trusts you and you can trust.

 

[Chickenjohn]

Methinks the tester needs to have a proper read of the tester's manual.
Regardless of whether it's a full panel or a patch, spot/plug welds are acceptable where they originally were, provided the defective part has been fully removed, i.e. you're not patching over the top.
Looking at the photos, the OP has done that as there's nothing left of the inner, middle and outer sill panels in the area that was repaired.
It's very clearly worded, I'd be very tempted to print if off and wave it in his face.

I agree, the tester has been a jobsworth here or does not understand the rules properly. The OP made a perfectly good repair and was made to fully weld a seam that was not originally fully welded and does not need to be fully welded under the MOT rules.

To the OP - don't go back to that garage, next time find an MOT tester who knows his stuff!

 

[octo0072000]

I agree, the tester has been a jobsworth here or does not understand the rules properly. The OP made a perfectly good repair and was made to fully weld a seam that was not originally fully welded and does not need to be fully welded under the MOT rules.

To the OP - don't go back to that garage, next time find an MOT tester who knows his stuff!

maybe the tester could have let it go but the testers manual say replaced panels can be plug welded not part panel see link from testers manual item 10 still a grey area

and here is another stupid one land rover discovery rear body mounts both can be rotted or broken and it's only a advise but 2 mounts on one side is a fail

http://www.motuk.co.uk/mot_appendix_c.htm

 

[octo0072000]

but the Vosa information states that after the 1sr April '86 ALL cars should have one.
from our own forum


and another is failure as there is no indicator tell lale the repeater can is fitted in such a way as there is an audible "ping" but some testers look for the green light, when "an audible or visual warning" is required

You are up to the discretion of the individual tester - sometimes unfortunatley. Worth finding one that trusts you and you can trust.

Sean
didn't the 2CV headlamps have a little tell tale that stuck up above the actual headlamp itself so you could see the light was on from inside the car

little clip for 2cv fans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvJp1X3qiog&feature=related

 

[Chickenjohn]

maybe the tester could have let it go but the testers manual say replaced panels can be plug welded not part panel see link from testers manual item 10 still a grey area

and here is another stupid one land rover discovery rear body mounts both can be rotted or broken and it's only a advise but 2 mounts on one side is a fail

http://www.motuk.co.uk/mot_appendix_c.htm

When they say "part panel" they mean a lap welded patch that most MOT garages do. What the original poster did was completely remove the old outer sill, fabricate a nice replica of the rear of the sill, butt weld it where there was no welding previously and plug weld where spot welding was originally.

Therefore the original poster welded his sill repair in as close to original spec as possible and should have a got a pass and a pat on the back from the MOT tester for such quality work.

Clearly this garage is one to avoid, and to tell all your mates not to go there as there is a jobsworth tester who does not know the rules properly.

 

[Chickenjohn]

From your MOT guide link:-

"· the repair must appear to be virtually as strong as the original structure with only continuous seam welding being acceptable for patch repairs (even if the patch extends beyond the prescribed area).

· spot welded joints are acceptable where the original panel has been replaced to an existing spot welded flange (provided the original defective panel flange has been removed). Stitch or plug welding is acceptable as an alternative to spot welding in these cases. "

In this case plug welding HAD been used where the panel was replaced to the flange.

So the Fiesta should have been passed, clearly the tester is a King Cnut!

 

[pedrobedro]

Here's my favourite 2CV clip.

 

[Sean]

Sean
didn't the 2CV headlamps have a little tell tale that stuck up above the actual headlamp itself so you could see the light was on from inside the car

In the 50s

and thats a crap film
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fq8_iZY2g4

this one for the sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FcYdGWePw

and many more before i take this thread totally off topic
- cant find the videos of us racing at Spa or racing in the Sahara

back on thread -OP i thought it was a perfectly acceptable repair but some of the MOT men aint the brightest - had a stand up fight with one over my partners car a 3yr old pug they replaced the whole exhaust system including the cat because one bracket on the rear box was cracked " not allowed repair of part system" "not allowed to weld it "yada yada yada
stiff letter to the lease company and suggestion that they may want to investigate their choice of service contractor.

Sean

 

[Wozzaaah]

maybe the tester could have let it go but the testers manual say replaced panels can be plug welded not part panel see link from testers manual item 10 still a grey area

and here is another stupid one land rover discovery rear body mounts both can be rotted or broken and it's only a advise but 2 mounts on one side is a fail

http://www.motuk.co.uk/mot_appendix_c.htm

Read it again Octo...properly!
John is absolutely right in his interpretation.

 

[Iain Westland]

trouble is, some of the vosa guys will fail it so the tester is between a rock and a hard place..

 

[zardoz]

You wanna do what I did. Which was do such a neat repair/re paint, that nobody could tell it was done in the first place Had to stitch weld it, as metal was so thin. I blended the paint into the inside door angle.

Before

After

Bit of dirt on it and its "disguised" as not even newly repaired. Or at least that's the plan. Its MOT is this week. Will let you know the outcome