nhs sharing your details opting out

[Parm]

Thumbscrews?

And some other stuff...........

 

[slim_boy_fat]

And some other stuff...........

That's more than enough information.....

 

[DAPPH]

Yep. Like when they sold Royal Mail.

Apart from that it was sold at under market value and the people who really made the profits were not the tax payer at all.

(Under market value is historically factual rather than opinion, given the rapid market readjustment immediately following the sell off)


It begs the question - if govt couldn't run somthing as (relatively) simple as a postal service, then what on earth are they doing pretending they can run the rest of the country???

Unless maybe there's more to all these sell offs than what's good for the tax payer?

And then we are back to who makes the gains.

Anyone here think it's going to be them from this latest one?

The more the government off loads nationalised industries or parts of them from it's house the more that company is forced to become more efficient & effective.

Why would you want to keep funding such costly organisation for the rest of your life .......let them improve or perish . It might also be the time to point out that since a lot of companies that have been sold off / de nationalised & exposed to the real world of economic performance & efficiency we've hardly has any strikes disrupting our lives. That can't be bad for anyone who recalls the British Strike Disease of the 1970's

I certainly don't miss the mail man dropping circulars in my mail box as nearly all my communications are by phone , other electronic means or inside a packet that's delivered by alternative carriers . I've not used a post office for any reason for a very long time but I have used post boxes to send letters if it is cheaper than a carrier.
It won't be long before we can buy postage fees on the internet & use our own printed sticky labels to put on the envelope similar to how the other carriers get paid for the packages they collect.

 

[DAPPH]

All the gowns I've had to wear don't have backs in them to get clinkers, very draughty in my experience.

I have a 40 inch waist & 57 inch chest ( I'm a mere 16 stone 6 pounds & 5 '10 " tall ) it's not often I've had a hospital gown fit me as most won't go up past my elbows , last time I was in hospital they wrapped me in a big sheet to hold me in place in the MRI scanner

 

[ukracer]

But that’s exactly what the other lot do

What other lot?

 

[DAPPH]

The seemingly well informed video clip that i posted earlier, that examines the situation in America, states that there are individuals in America who simply cant get health cover due to their conditions.

If we move toward a similar scheme, which, arguably, this is a precursor to, then there will be those whom private healthcare just deems they cant make a profit from.

It's kind of like that here in the UK it's called the NHS postcode lottery .. it gets even worse as you get older . That's why we have long waiting lists for ( able to register as technically blind ) cataract ops, housebound people needing hip & knee joint replacements or spinal problems that require surgical intervention when someone turns 70.

Covid isn't helping either it's going to get much worse before it remotely starts to get better.

 

[julianf]

The more the government off loads nationalised industries or parts of them from it's house the more that company is forced to become more efficient & effective.

Why would you want to keep funding such costly organisation for the rest of your life .......let them improve or perish . It might also be the time to point out that since a lot of companies that have been sold off / de nationalised & exposed to the real world of economic performance & efficiency we've hardly has any strikes disrupting our lives. That can't be bad for anyone who recalls the British Strike Disease of the 1970's

I certainly don't miss the mail man dropping circulars in my mail box as nearly all my communications are by phone , other electronic means or inside a packet that's delivered by alternative carriers . I've not used a post office for any reason for a very long time but I have used post boxes to send letters if it is cheaper than a carrier.
It won't be long before we can buy postage fees on the internet & use our own printed sticky labels to put on the envelope similar to how the other carriers get paid for the packages they collect.

Out of my two options, are you then choosing "the government is too incompetent to run a water service" then?

Im not going to look it up, but I certainly read a few years back that Britain, since the railways were sold off, now (or rather then) had the most expensive train fares in the world, at 3x the world average. Again I don't know if this is still the case, but it's not going to be so far off.

It's a common argument that you have just made - "do you want the train service costing the tax payer money" (etc) but these industries are essential to the running of a country. When they are privatised their costs to the end user rise. It happens again and again. Sure, it may not be on the government payroll any more, but it's still costing society.

With regards to efficiency. The private sector lowers costs, sure. But they also add the cost of profit. This is why end user cost generally rise in spite of the ever touted grail of "efficiency".

Profit drives efficiency, but, oligopolistic industries are a text book example of where the market fails. And, by "text book" I don't just mean the saying, this would be in any basic economic text book!

Efficiency is not always the golden grail that it's touted as being. You have to weigh up the moderate inefficiency of a nationalised service against its price change if it were to become privately owned.

I think that, in most of the examples I gave previously, the cost to the end user (ie society) has increased, inspite of the efficiency gains that privatisation may have afforded.

 

[brewdexta]

The more the government off loads nationalised industries or parts of them from it's house the more that company is forced to become more efficient & effective.

Why would you want to keep funding such costly organisation for the rest of your life .......let them improve or perish . It might also be the time to point out that since a lot of companies that have been sold off / de nationalised & exposed to the real world of economic performance & efficiency we've hardly has any strikes disrupting our lives. That can't be bad for anyone who recalls the British Strike Disease of the 1970's

I certainly don't miss the mail man dropping circulars in my mail box as nearly all my communications are by phone , other electronic means or inside a packet that's delivered by alternative carriers . I've not used a post office for any reason for a very long time but I have used post boxes to send letters if it is cheaper than a carrier.
It won't be long before we can buy postage fees on the internet & use our own printed sticky labels to put on the envelope similar to how the other carriers get paid for the packages they collect.

The trouble is, the ones that should stay in public hands, like rail and health, are never truly privatised. They would never make money without huge government subsidies. And Branson and others have made fortunes out of milking subsidies while still giving poor service, Northern Rail for example.

The other side of the coin is critical national infrastructure. Letting market forces loose on steel production is fine until there's a war and you discover you have insufficient capacity or skills as it's all gone offshore.

I'm all for privatisation apart from health, national transport, water, power distribution, education and critical national infrastructure. The latter doesn't need to be completely nationalised, but needs better support.

Privatisation does not always lead to efficiency, look at any US medical bill and it will be self evident.

 

[Burdekin]

My personal opinion on rail fares; if it costs more than it does to drive a car the same distance it's failed and is too expensive. Rail fares in the UK are expensive for what they are.

If the government could run the railway at a profit all well and good but if they can't then we would have to cut back in other areas or pay more tax. As someone who doesn't need the railway I don't fancy either.

 

[brewdexta]

I guess you have to look at it holistically, you may not use rail personally, but a lot of people that provide services to you do. health workers, shop workers, office workers etc. etc. So indirectly we all use rail.

Interestingly, several European nationalised rail operators not only do a good job of their own rail, they then come over here, run our rail and milk our subsidies to assist in funding their rail A complete fail on rail privatisation, and this latest "rail privatisation" is nothing of the sort, its just centralised cronyism.

 

[julianf]

Interestingly, several European nationalised rail operators not only do a good job of their own rail, they then come over here, run our rail and milk our subsidies to assist in funding their rail A complete fail on rail privatisation, and this latest "rail privatisation" is nothing of the sort, its just centralised cronyism.

I mentioned the other day how DHL (70% German state owned) now has a "significant" holding in Royal Mail.

So, again a case of another piece of our national infrastructure being sold off to foreign governments because our own government is either too incompetent to manage it, OR has other interests.


It's a source of confusion for me that many people who seem otherwise far more nationalistic than me (taking back control) are often exactly those who sing the praises of selling off our nationalised infrastructure. In many cases, as highlighted above, to foreign governments!

It seems like such a contradiction to me.

 

[Gritineye]

Under our system no government can ever run an industry efficiently, we need to ensure the same lot (any lot will do) stay in power for a very long time so they can properly implement their long term plans.......................

Oh hang on,........ scrub that.........eerrrmmmm

 

[Burdekin]

I guess you have to look at it holistically, you may not use rail personally, but a lot of people that provide services to you do. health workers, shop workers, office workers etc. etc. So indirectly we all use rail.

Interestingly, several European nationalised rail operators not only do a good job of their own rail, they then come over here, run our rail and milk our subsidies to assist in funding their rail A complete fail on rail privatisation, and this latest "rail privatisation" is nothing of the sort, its just centralised cronyism.

A lot of the rail infrastructure has been removed here and there are no signs it will ever be returned. Most folk here would just be subsiding other areas where they still have a good rail infrastructure. We haven't even got a dual carriageway connecting Aberdeen and Inverness let alone a railway to most areas of the shire. Aberdeen is one of the lowest funded councils in Scotland so paying more tax to fund other areas, I'll pass thanks.

 

[ukracer]

A lot of the rail infrastructure has been removed here and there are no signs it will ever be returned. Most folk here would just be subsiding other areas where they still have a good rail infrastructure. We haven't even got a dual carriageway connecting Aberdeen and Inverness let alone a railway to most areas of the shire. Aberdeen is one of the lowest funded councils in Scotland so paying more tax to fund other areas, I'll pass thanks.

I think you miss his point....but yes this is the way things are going. Which all rather strange considering who (in the main) live in the country where that's causing more and more cuts etc.

 

[DAPPH]

Julian working for BT I did a lot of telemetry for various water boards in 1990 just prior to the water companies being sold off. In the offices they were still running the set up on hand written index cards in nearly ally boards . Most water pumping points had a resident pump man living close by in a tied cottage .

It needed zillions to be invested in them as no government of any persuasion seemed to have bothered since they were nationalised .
Imagine the civil service soundly constipated and chained to the 15 th Century practices & ideas .
Most water boards were like that , no one would make a decision if they could spent three hours trying to discover a reason not to. Nine years later when Anglian water was up & running there had been a massive investment ..though the fish replacement programme to replace fish lost to pollution & drought was severely curtailed ( All that programme seemed to do was to provide zillions of small fish for bigger predatory fish to eat at their customers expense.

)
The network of pumping points became electronically controlled three phase motor pumps all controlled from two places ( X&Y path disaster competetnant place miles apart )

By the time I left BT in 1988 the 19 30's to the 1950's sewage treatment plants were being replaced all over the East Anglian area with highly effective new ones & many new ones were being constructed.

The trouble is, the ones that should stay in public hands, like rail and health, are never truly privatised. They would never make money without huge government subsidies. And Branson and others have made fortunes out of milking subsidies while still giving poor service, Northern Rail for example.

The other side of the coin is critical national infrastructure. Letting market forces loose on steel production is fine until there's a war and you discover you have insufficient capacity or skills as it's all gone offshore.

I'm all for privatisation apart from health, national transport, water, power distribution, education and critical national infrastructure. The latter doesn't need to be completely nationalised, but needs better support.

Privatisation does not always lead to efficiency, look at any US medical bill and it will be self evident.

Nearly all the surgeons & doctors are self employed private business men & women , the NHS does not own many ( if any ) factories producing the material & equipment needs . All the food is purchased in , even the universities that educate the NHS staff tend to be not owned by the NHS , the ambulances might also be on contract hire as are most of their other vehicles.


Nationalising transport :-
I & many many others resent subsidising people to travel to & from work & get bigger incomes than me . If they want to travel to work from a cheaper house outside of the big conurbations let the sods pay for it.
If all the entities that use the national transport system paid the true going rate for using it life & financial life would be far better balanced . Subsidies in effective business just hide the problem at other peoples expense.


The best thing of the utilities being owned by foreigners is that they can't easily ship them abroad & any price increases have to get past the various " Off com " boards.

 

[DAPPH]

I mentioned the other day how DHL (70% German state owned) now has a "significant" holding in Royal Mail.

So, again a case of another piece of our national infrastructure being sold off to foreign governments because our own government is either too incompetent to manage it, OR has other interests.


It's a source of confusion for me that many people who seem otherwise far more nationalistic than me (taking back control) are often exactly those who sing the praises of selling off our nationalised infrastructure. In many cases, as highlighted above, to foreign governments!

It seems like such a contradiction to me.

They are welcome to it .. it's losing money hand over fist & has for many many years as people are not sending zillions of letters or small parcels via them .

I seem to recall that DHL and several other national carriers proposed to & possibly now swap a lot of collections & deliveries over the trucking routes at numerous hubs around the UK .
That means you are not heavily paying for the post office staff pensions & benefits for the rest of your taxpaying life .

 

[DAPPH]

The trouble is, the ones that should stay in public hands, like rail and health, are never truly privatised. They would never make money without huge government subsidies. And Branson and others have made fortunes out of milking subsidies while still giving poor service, Northern Rail for example.

The other side of the coin is critical national infrastructure. Letting market forces loose on steel production is fine until there's a war and you discover you have insufficient capacity or skills as it's all gone offshore.

I'm all for privatisation apart from health, national transport, water, power distribution, education and critical national infrastructure. The latter doesn't need to be completely nationalised, but needs better support.

Privatisation does not always lead to efficiency, look at any US medical bill and it will be self evident.

These day the war would be over in ten days with the winner (?) mopping up for a month or so afterwards .. forget super bombers & jets tanks , ship & subs they are so last century .

 

[Richiew]

Eurostar needed a bailout recently due to covid. I believe the government told them to jog on as they had sold it to the French a number of years previously. Someone else had to put their hands in their pockets instead.

 

[brewdexta]

Nearly all the surgeons & doctors are self employed private business men & women , the NHS does not own many ( if any ) factories producing the material & equipment needs . All the food is purchased in , even the universities that educate the NHS staff tend to be not owned by the NHS , the ambulances might also be on contract hire as are most of their other vehicles.

Very true, and outsourcing stuff like laundry, supplies, transport, absolutely fine. What I am talking about is the actual front line service. When I was visiting my father in James Cook hospital Middlesbrough, they had several teams of nurses for different uses all outsourced to different companies, it was a shambles. My SiL is a nurse and had to tell them how to do things several times when she went to visit. They got meds wrong, missed out on feeding. Outsourced usually means minimum wage and sod all training in my experience. All hidden behind pointless SLAs, AKA high class sympathy, sod all action. And what about PPP? What a shambles, and huge burden on the state.

A few years ago, a company I worked for tried to outsource some programming to the usual set of outsourcing agencies. We gave the prospective consultants our graduate entrant programming exam. They all failed except one, and he was booked out for the foreseeable future. I think that was about 50 applicants. The reason is, that as soon as the programmer gets good, and wants a bit more cash, they just say "on yer bike", they charge a gold pig for consultancy and don't want to erode their huge margins. Hence why its 34 Billion for test and trace, it should be a tenth of that.

I take your point on some nationalised industries being third world, I'm ex BT too, started as an apprentice. However they are not all backward, just need to get the right management in place, and the right funding. BTs management were pretty bad, all dead mans shoes, it needed to be a meritocracy. The only way to get on was to leave, and come back later at a higher level. I left, but never went back.

 

[Parm]

The James Cook

Very true, and outsourcing stuff like laundry, supplies, transport, absolutely fine. What I am talking about is the actual front line service. When I was visiting my father in James Cook hospital Middlesbrough, they had several teams of nurses for different uses all outsourced to different companies, it was a shambles. My SiL is a nurse and had to tell them how to do things several times when she went to visit. They got meds wrong, missed out on feeding. Outsourced usually means minimum wage and sod all training in my experience. All hidden behind pointless SLAs, AKA high class sympathy, sod all action. And what about PPP? What a shambles, and huge burden on the state.

A few years ago, a company I worked for tried to outsource some programming to the usual set of outsourcing agencies. We gave the prospective consultants our graduate entrant programming exam. They all failed except one, and he was booked out for the foreseeable future. I think that was about 50 applicants. The reason is, that as soon as the programmer gets good, and wants a bit more cash, they just say "on yer bike", they charge a gold pig for consultancy and don't want to erode their huge margins. Hence why its 34 Billion for test and trace, it should be a tenth of that.

I take your point on some nationalised industries being third world, I'm ex BT too, started as an apprentice. However they are not all backward, just need to get the right management in place, and the right funding. BTs management were pretty bad, all dead mans shoes, it needed to be a meritocracy. The only way to get on was to leave, and come back later at a higher level. I left, but never went back.

I know the James Cook very well after having done lots of work there. It was all out sourced to Carllion. Every single thing they touched ended up being broken. They were experts at breaking unbreakable things

We now all know whats happened to carillion ......