Repairing a cloned magicwave

[Dutch Welder]

Well, the plot thickens.
I've gone and bought a second, working Prestotig 200 AC/DC.
I love the arc on them (after using a mates Fuzzy) so this way I can check components piece by piece.
I am not convinced the repaired board is the culprit, so swapping that from the new one to the old one, and checking what the old one does is an option.

 

[Dutch Welder]

Just got home from picking up the second Prestotig.
It came with a 26 type torch (12 meters long ) but it's stiffer then a dead guy at a porn shoot, so that will be going into the spares bin.

I have a spare Rtech watercooler, and have retrofitted a quick disconnect for the gas (Prestotig uses gas through Dinse, which might be fine if the SAF was my only welder, but as I have 3 Binzel torches with seperate gas connector already I decided on the QD fitting, and forgoing the Gas Through Dinse) As both my other machines are Chinese I also swapped the torch connector on the SAF for a GX16 6 pinner, so now all my torches work on all my welders.
I quickly connected my Binzel Grip Little SR20 and made some very, very nice beads on some scrap I had about.
The greatest difference is the lack of noise from the AC arc, even with both Chinese machines on sine wave the SAF is way quieter.

Only drawback is that the SAF/Rtech Cooler combo is a bit hefty at about 55 kilo's, so mobile work is still the domain for the NTF SuperTig (which ,with it's DIY cooler bolted to it, weighs less the SAF does alone)
No arc pictures,but the first couple of welds look gorgeous, even when done by me, who is more of a mechanic who can weld, the a welder who can handle a spanner.

 

[More Amps]

it's stiffer then a dead guy at a porn shoot

Well, that's a new keyboard required!

 

[henry Kadzielski]

it's stiffer then a dead guy at a porn shoot

Well a Dutch man with a sense of humor. That is something Australians would say. Glad to see the Dutch warming up, 'beauty mate' 'that's a ripper'

 

[Richard.]

The greatest difference is the lack of noise from the AC arc, even with both Chinese machines on sine wave the SAF is way quieter.

Go into pr3
Set ACF at 90
Positive wave at sin
Negative wave at rec
Balance between 2 and 3 o’clock
Tell it your tungsten size is 1mm
Use a 1.6 tungsten at any current up to 150amps and the ball wont move

With those settings you’ll never want to make any changes to it again.

 

[Macfun]

I've replaced the rectifiers. they now put out a healthy 300v DC.
The main transformer still hasn't got any power.
I've removed the transformer and it's marked as 230V AC on it (MW2000 also mentioned in the poart nr.) and I do not have 230V AC on the terminals on the BPS21 main board
However a mate of a mate of mine has a Castolin 2002 that's been neglected and unused for quite a while.

I am borrowing that machine from him, so I can swap out parts/measure things side by side directly.
More and more I am thinking one or more of the mosfets or IGBT's under the BPS21 board are fried.

Hi Dutch Welder !

Once again, this forum made me learn something new.
Another MW2000/TT2000 clone ...

Did you remember the references for the rectifier, and for the "mosfets or ..." behind the board ?
Any pictures at that time ?
Are they all the same, or different from left (3 units) to right (4 units) ?

I now try to identify them and to find their right place on the heat dissipation plate, as I got my Castotig 2002 '"as-is" with all 7 removed and gathered in a plastic bag ...
Before any tests, I would at least rebuild this machine.

Mvg

 

[Dutch Welder]

On mine they were all the same, all marked FRO somenumber.
I am still working on my first SAF Prestotig, HughF fixed the board (As i swapped it out with my second Prestotig) but I only have half amperage on DC and no AC at all, when I fit the repaired board into the first Prestotig.
Am considering swapping out the IGBT's from the working one to the bad one, but that keeps getting put on the to do list. Have a Chinese 320 Amp machine as well, but find myself using the Prestotig most of the time.
I am presently finishing up some small welding jobs, after that the Prestotig reviving saga will continue.

 

[Macfun]

Thanks for the reply.

If you've time and good will, I would be delighted to know the 7 components FRO references ... but you'll need to remove the primary circuit board (again ...) and I could understand it's boring (at least). Did you removed/exchanged this board on Prestotig ?

BTW, I discovered that Oerlikon also made a clone of the Magic Wave 2000 with the same name as the SAF.

 

[Dutch Welder]

Oerlikon and SAf are somehow related, name used to be SAF, and now is Oerlikon, they rebrand their machines.
The Oerlikon Citotig 250 amp AC/DC welder is a Kemmpi in a Blue dress, for example.
Will check out the numbers etcetera, but I checked around and theyre just generic numbers with a STelectronics logo on the other side.

 

[Richard.]

Fronius built that unit under a number of colours.
The only decent saf oerlikon machines made were the ones made by someone else.
Some of their Own stuff was ok but no where near worth the price they wanted for it.

 

[Macfun]

Oerlikon and SAf are somehow related, name used to be SAF, and now is Oerlikon, they rebrand their machines.
The Oerlikon Citotig 250 amp AC/DC welder is a Kemmpi in a Blue dress, for example.
Will check out the numbers etcetera, but I checked around and theyre just generic numbers with a STelectronics logo on the other side.

I'm now unofficially in contact with a nice guy from ST.
He found interesting to try to find out a way of getting the welder back to life, kind of a challenge.
His part of "work" is to convince someone at ST factory to search in the archive a corresponding unit to FRO169 (I sent him a picture), or at least what was inside.
So he's not THE person who could directly find it out, but he could push internally.
Wait and see.

Regarding FRO178 unit (the ones on the other side of my machine, with the copper bars), in the spare parts list of the Fronius, it is mentioned "Silicium diode".

 

[Dutch Welder]

Fronius built that unit under a number of colours.
The only decent saf oerlikon machines made were the ones made by someone else.
Some of their Own stuff was ok but no where near worth the price they wanted for it.

Indeed
Investig 2020 AC/DC
SAF/Oerlikon/Air Liquide Prestotig 200AC/DC
Castolin Eutectic 2002 AC/DC are all brothers of the Magicwave 2000 Fuzzy
You can usually spot them on the control knob layout, the AC/DC+/DC- selector switch is usually a dead giveaway, if it has that it's probably a Fuzzy wearing different clothes.

At least Castolin Eutectic did stick with Fronius based machines, as the Castolin 2202 is a copy of Fronius's successor to the Fuzzy.
Oerlikon have jumped ship to another brand, as they now do the Kemmpi Mastertig 250 AC/DC as their Citotig 250AC/DC.

I've never seen a SAF/Oerlikon TIG/MIG machine that wasn't someone elses technology, I always thought that they were just rebadgers from their time as Air Liquide.
I also have a small SAF stick welder the Saxo 3.5, that seems to be a real SAF machine I.E. not a copy.

 

[Richard.]

successor to the Fuzzy.

There is no successor to the fuzzy. As good as they are they peaked with the fuzzy. you’ll soon see once you get round to using it in anger.

 

[HughF]

I'm now unofficially in contact with a nice guy from ST.
He found interesting to try to find out a way of getting the welder back to life, kind of a challenge.
His part of "work" is to convince someone at ST factory to search in the archive a corresponding unit to FRO169 (I sent him a picture), or at least what was inside.
So he's not THE person who could directly find it out, but he could push internally.
Wait and see.

Regarding FRO178 unit (the ones on the other side of my machine, with the copper bars), in the spare parts list of the Fronius, it is mentioned "Silicium diode".

There are many different devices that are supplied in the standard 4-pin sot-227 package, from regular diodes to mosfets to igbts to half wave diode packs... The easiest way to identify if you are looking at a half wave diode pack or a mosfet/igbt is to see how it is connected. Diode packs will often have a common output across 2 terminals with the main transformer outputs going to the other two studs. The center tap of the transformer often goes to the output inductor then off to one dinse connector... pretty simple stuff really.

 

[HughF]

I'm now unofficially in contact with a nice guy from ST.
He found interesting to try to find out a way of getting the welder back to life, kind of a challenge.
His part of "work" is to convince someone at ST factory to search in the archive a corresponding unit to FRO169 (I sent him a picture), or at least what was inside.
So he's not THE person who could directly find it out, but he could push internally.
Wait and see.

Regarding FRO178 unit (the ones on the other side of my machine, with the copper bars), in the spare parts list of the Fronius, it is mentioned "Silicium diode".

FRO178 are standard dual diodes in sot-227 package - I posted a link to a suitable replacement in the other thread... As for the FRO169, I'm still unsure about these, but you could try any high voltage n- channel FET and see what happens. Worst case, the harris HV400 gate drivers go bang - I have some in stock and they can me replaced easily enough from aliexpress

 

[Macfun]

I found FRO169 at ali ....
Still negotiating with Chinese supplier for one test unit, and estimation for shipping.
No datasheet unfortunately.

How could I test the FRO169 to know what could be inside with a Fluke 179 DMM for example) ?

 

[eddie49]

From the "other" thread:
https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/castolin-castotig-2002-mw2000.83288/page-2#post-1491878
My post #37 of 10. Feb. AGAIN :

Searching for "FRO169" produces a link to a datasheet at Farnell for STE45NK80ZD, which is an 800v 45A N-channel MOSFET from ST Microelectronics:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/64918.pdf

[ There's nothing on that datasheet to explain the "hit" for that FRO169 search....]

Similarly, a search for "FRO178" links to STTH20002TV1, which is a 200v 120A dual-diode module:
https://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/stth20002tv1/diode-fast-200v-2x120a-isotop/dp/1689330

This Slovenian website confirms that the FRO178 has 2 diodes and is from a Transtig 2000 :
http://www.elektronik.si/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=184365&sid=75756ad5e67d03a1b9f371793ac08e55
They suggest an IXYS Westcode alternative part:
http://www.westcode.com/md600-12.pdf

 

[HughF]

From the "other" thread:
https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/castolin-castotig-2002-mw2000.83288/page-2#post-1491878
My post #37 AGAIN :

Searching for "FRO169" produces a link to a datasheet at Farnell for STE45NK80ZD, which is an 800v 45A N-channel MOSFET from ST Microelectronics:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/64918.pdf

[ There's nothing on that datasheet to explain the "hit" for that FRO169 search....]

Similarly, a search for "FRO178" links to STTH20002TV1, which is a 200v 120A dual-diode module:
https://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/stth20002tv1/diode-fast-200v-2x120a-isotop/dp/1689330

This Slovenian website confirms that the FRO178 has 2 diodes and is from a Transtig 2000 :
http://www.elektronik.si/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=184365&sid=75756ad5e67d03a1b9f371793ac08e55
They suggest an IXYS Westcode alternative part:
http://www.westcode.com/md600-12.pdf

That all checks out as far as I'm concerned... You should be able to use any 400v or higher rated N channel FET in the primary inverter stage to replace the FRO169 devices, provided they are about 45a or higher. As for the diodes after the primary transformer, again, any suitable rated sot-227 dual devices would work. .

The bit that makes the magicwave so nice is all the output stage with the IGBT modules and the control of these. Anything from that stage back up to the mains cable is just standard switched mode PSU stuff.