Rigging airlines in workshop

[James1979]

Have you got a link to such a valve?

I looked in my history and cannot find the actual one. These sellers come and go but this is it.

Pardon our interruption...

Double check they send you the 240v one. I know this because if you don’t, and they don’t, it lets magic smoke out at quite an impressive rate.

 

[bricol]

I just ran 16mm nylon pipe from hydrovane under house to the garage - used push-fit and enots fittings to connect, depending on what was needed. Minimum of joints and certainly minimum of elbow fittings to maximise flow, nice curves in the nylon pipe instead.

Once in garage into a PCL Dropout (claims "to efficiently remove 99.9999% of liquid (water & oil) and 99% solid particulate down to 1 micron" - and I have no reason to think it doesn't - simply never seen moisture in any form discharged from drain, connections, blow-off guns since fitting it) into a 12mm ring main that run around the garage at height, with drops down to connection points in the four corners, and mid-way along each wall - soon realised I never used on mid-wall and one corner, so removed them. Again, curves in the pipe rather than elbows to maximise flow. Retracting hose reels each side of the door - one came from Aldi and I have to say is very impressive for the 15 quid it cost - fit and use, forget it in between. The other 50ft one came home in a suitcase from a closing down Walmart . . . it destroyed the case on the flights back home, and Delta kindly gave me another that I still use close 20 yrs later - the hose reel has needed a couple of manual rewinds, spring re-tensions and one hose replacement in the same time.

I run everything pretty much as full line pressure - I have a big Parker filter reg, with gauge, that I plug in where and if needed. Connections to use a small 24ltr tank portable compressor that came from Germany's answer to BnQ back in 1999 (as it was so much cheaper than anything similar here at the time) and also to be able to add in a 3hp compressor on a big tank if needed.

Its usually running off the small compressor as it makes no sense to run the hydrovane to fills it tank, or the big piston compressor, for a small use. Both in terms of power used, but the hydrovane needs to be properly used (much like a car engine) to get properly hot to drive out condensation etc.

Simple short air line plugged into the mid-wall connection by my work bench across the back wall covers everywhere I need.

As its just me, there's not need for big bore, high flow steel pipe etc - I can't use enough air flow to need it. I can if needed, plug directly into the hydrovane with big bore hose for my blasters - not really needed to though.

 

[KemppiFrog]

Got bored with switching the air line from the plasma to the air powered notcher, along with a few other uses, so just used plastic plumbing 12mm tube with the standard fittings that have a sleeve that you push onto the tube, then ram the ribbed brass end into the tube, sliding, with some force, the sleeve back over the joint. Good for 8 bar and 90°C. Cheap too..from our local B&Q.
Compressor is a bitsa. Prob a 15cfm with a spare jetwash motor. Mounted on a defunct air receiver with the control bits. Easily keeps up with the plasma. For the very rare occasions I need more air, I plumb in a little 1.5 hp jobby, but not often. The little unit has a tubular carrying frame that is the receiver. Good for tyres and little spray jobs.

 

[MetalMonkey]

I'd be very, very interested in this, any pictures of the condenser? I assume this is something you made.

I'm envisioning a radiator type arrangement with a drain? Not sure tbh how it's meant to work without some form of desiccant...

Pretty sure when I was playing with sand blasting damp was the issue. Irrespective of what gun I used, it started off OK but then clogged really quickly.

Currently a bit hard to take any decent photos I'm halfway through extending the workshop, so the average bombsite is a lot more organised.

Its just some 3m lengths of copper pipe in a zig zag with a fall down to a drain point. Nothing fancy.
Compressors are under a bench, and pipework is tucked at the back out of the way. It would be better if it was further away from the source of the heat, but it hasn't been a problem and I'm short on wall space, so it is what it is.

Two compressors feed in with their own ball valves. the feed to the ring is taken off the top and the drain (blue plastic pipe) continues around and joins up with the drains on the compressors and dumps out through the wall.

The ring main is JG, with water trap T's at each drop

Most of the drops are hooked up like this, with a drain at the bottom, T piece off the side to a regulator.

System is designed so any moisture flows back towards a drain at a low point. Not that I really get anything past the "condenser".
I currently have seven regulated outlets, with another four planned for the extension - all with water traps, but I never see any moisture at them.

I know fully malleable iron pipe would be the ultimate solution, and full copper is probably a good alternative as you will get far more "condensing" action out of the pipe runs than with plastic, but the JG stuff is super easy to fit and amend and was fairly cheap when I bought it - so far it has worked well for me. I get quite a bit of water out of the copper condenser section though, so I think that was certainly worthwhile doing.

 

[AVI_8]

Metal Monkey
I like your setup with 2 compressors linked together, I’m eventually wanting to build a spray booth in my workshop, which will include enough CFM to run a spray gun and an air fed mask, probably around 18 CFM, which will be either a large tandem compressor or 2 compressors with around 14 cfm each linked together like you’ve done with one way ball valves, I know how to link the compressors together but I’m still not decided what route I’m going to go down.
Two second hand 3 HP compressors are easy to come by and cheaper than a new tandem which is around a grand or more, tandem compressors don’t generally come up second hand where I live.
Still have not decided which route to go down, How do you find having your 2 compressors linked together as far as working together goes? Do you find that one of them runs too much before the other kicks in when using high CFM?
I know that you can tweak the start up pressure, my concern would be one compressor working too hard and exceeding its duty cycle with the thermal overload cutting its power half way through a spray job. I know the theory just wondering how it works in practice linking them together.

 

[MetalMonkey]

The ball valves you see are just standard ball valves so I can isolate one or both from the ring main - they aren't one way check valves.
You certainly can fit those, and it is a good idea where one compressor operates at a higher tank pressure than the other.

I didn't bother because both units cut out at ~ 10 bar, and it gives me the flexibility to fill both tanks from either compressor, essentially sharing the 250L between them.

The only reason I'm using two is because I bought the Sealey many years ago so I already had it and I was also tight on space so one big compressor wouldn't have fitted under the bench unless I did a remote tank of some sort.
In the end it was easier to just buy another one and couple them together - If you were starting from scratch, a single larger unit would probably work out cheaper and easier.

The Sealey has done a fair bit of work (you can see I've replaced the top skid plate with angle because the original cracked). It runs far to fast IMO and rattles half to death so they can get the claimed FAD (I plan to slow it down at some point).
The AIE (blue) one runs much slower and quieter and delivers the same FAD or slightly higher. Typically I will just use that one and use the Sealey as extra reservoir unless I need the additional CFM (e.g, when sand blasting) and then I can run both together.
The AIE one will overtake the Sealey and probably would do the bulk of the work, but with high CFM use such as blasting it will kick both of them on pretty quickly.

They cycle at different pressures, and both are fed from their own 16A feed, using a breakout box from a 32a supply, so it isn't really an issue if they are running or start up together. I've not had any problems I can think of.
The only issue is that the Sealey has never liked starting from cold with a full tank, so I usually make sure it is empty before I run it up, or just open the valves and let it equalise some pressure to the tank on the AIE.
I suspect it would be better at cold starts too if the pulley is changed.

This is how I have them wired, the cable out the top just has a 32A plug on the end, plugs into a socket just off to the right and breaks it out into two 16A circuits with their own MCB.

 

[AVI_8]

Thanks for your quick reply, my gut instincts were to to go with a tandem, I still think that’s the way to go for reliability, electrics are not a problem, my workshop is new, in fact tomorrow I’m out there installing the conduit which building control have insisted on, I’ve done the calcs and with 25MM conduit I can run 6mm singles through the 25mm conduit along with the ring main to keep within regs to run a 3X2 HP motor so that I can have a 32 Amp socket for a tandem, better to future proof at this stage! Need to get a sparky now to connect it all up and make it legal when I’ve done the donkey work
Thanks again

 

[Henrik]

rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd ask here instead.

My compressor currently lives under the workbench, with an old 10mm ID hose with one quick-connect on the hose. The hose is a PITA to use, because it doesn't coil up nicely, and it's also looking like it's about to crack soon, so starting to think about a "proper" installation instead.

I'm planning on either a 15 or 22mm ring in the workshop (5x5m rough size), with a couple of drops using tee connectors (Probably the John Guest pushfit connectors). Ideally I will run "system pressure" in the full ring, with individual pressure regs for the drops.


The questions I have are:

- If i run a ring, how do I manage condensation? Do I just add a tee-junction at the "drop legs" where I attach the pressure regs/tools, with a valve to let air out? Normally without a ring I guess you'd slope the pipes so they're always sloping down (with doglegs to bring the pipe up to height again?). Do I need to do the same with a ring?

- Is this schematic correct for a drop leg:

   ring pipe
---------+--------
         |
         |
         |
         +---<reg>---<pcl female>
         |
         |
         o
    ball valve

- Is there really any benefit for a hobbyist garage to go 22mm instead of 15? I have a desiccant dryer on the compressor already, and I think the air is generally dry.

- Is there any benefit in going for compression fittings over the john guest stuff?

 

[RWD3M]

rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd ask here instead.

My compressor currently lives under the workbench, with an old 10mm ID hose with one quick-connect on the hose. The hose is a PITA to use, because it doesn't coil up nicely, and it's also looking like it's about to crack soon, so starting to think about a "proper" installation instead.

I'm planning on either a 15 or 22mm ring in the workshop (5x5m rough size), with a couple of drops using tee connectors (Probably the John Guest pushfit connectors). Ideally I will run "system pressure" in the full ring, with individual pressure regs for the drops.


The questions I have are:

- If i run a ring, how do I manage condensation? Do I just add a tee-junction at the "drop legs" where I attach the pressure regs/tools, with a valve to let air out? Normally without a ring I guess you'd slope the pipes so they're always sloping down (with doglegs to bring the pipe up to height again?). Do I need to do the same with a ring?

- Is this schematic correct for a drop leg:

   ring pipe
---------+--------
         |
         |
         |
         +---<reg>---<pcl female>
         |
         |
         o
    ball valve

- Is there really any benefit for a hobbyist garage to go 22mm instead of 15? I have a desiccant dryer on the compressor already, and I think the air is generally dry.

- Is there any benefit in going for compression fittings over the john guest stuff?

Hi Henrik,

I recently installed an air manifold in my workshop, you might like to have a read here:

Cutting 1/2" BSP Threads

Over-bracketing will not hurt, just potentially cost you money. 1200 spacing is probably OK but if it turns out not to be, how much will the postage be for additional brackets? Anywhere you will be pulling on it (outlets), an additional bracket will not go amiss. The brackets set the stand off...

www.mig-welding.co.uk

 

[MetalMonkey]

If i run a ring, how do I manage condensation? Do I just add a tee-junction at the "drop legs" where I attach the pressure regs/tools, with a valve to let air out? Normally without a ring I guess you'd slope the pipes so they're always sloping down (with doglegs to bring the pipe up to height again?). Do I need to do the same with a ring?

Firstly, I'd try and remove as much of the moisture as possible before it enters the system - some form of DIY condenser is beneficial here, or there are some commercial moisture removal solutions too.

The T off to side to feed the regulator is good practice (as per your schematic). So any moisture drains down to the ball valve. Although if you have a good setup for removing it, you shouldn't get much if any at the valve IME.
If you are using the JG stuff they also do a water trap T which you use to feed the drop from the ring which takes the place of a "goose neck" - i.e. feeding the drop by looping down from the top of the ring to avoid any water draining into the drop.

The ring should have a slight slope down to a drain point.

- Is this schematic correct for a drop leg:

Yes, but as above, the recommendation is to goose neck off from the ring, which is essentially what the water trap T does.

- Is there really any benefit for a hobbyist garage to go 22mm instead of 15? I have a desiccant dryer on the compressor already, and I think the air is generally dry.

Depends a lot on the length of run you have, your compressor, and what you are using it for.

The longer the pipe run the more resistance and so a bigger bore is more beneficial.
Mine is 22mm ring and 13 mm drop and all my hoses are either 13 or 10mm bore with XF fittings. I took the view If I was spending on it, may as well future proof it

- Is there any benefit in going for compression fittings over the john guest stuff?

I suspect a lot depends on price. The JG pushfit stuff is convenient, but you could do the whole thing in end feed connectors and I think a few people on here have done that (I built my condenser using them).
The JG stuff works also works with copper.

 

[Henrik]

Hi Henrik,

I recently installed an air manifold in my workshop, you might like to have a read here:

Cutting 1/2" BSP Threads

Over-bracketing will not hurt, just potentially cost you money. 1200 spacing is probably OK but if it turns out not to be, how much will the postage be for additional brackets? Anywhere you will be pulling on it (outlets), an additional bracket will not go amiss. The brackets set the stand off...

www.mig-welding.co.uk

Good thread, thank you! Do you have any issues with water at all?

Firstly, I'd try and remove as much of the moisture as possible before it enters the system - some form of DIY condenser is beneficial here, or there are some commercial moisture removal solutions too.

The T off to side to feed the regulator is good practice (as per your schematic). So any moisture drains down to the ball valve. Although if you have a good setup for removing it, you shouldn't get much if any at the valve IME.
If you are using the JG stuff they also do a water trap T which you use to feed the drop from the ring which takes the place of a "goose neck" - i.e. feeding the drop by looping down from the top of the ring to avoid any water draining into the drop.

The ring should have a slight slope down to a drain point.

Oh, I was confused about how that water trap thing worked when I saw it on the JG web-site, but now that you mentioned goose-neck in relation to it, I understand exactly what it is / how it works! That looks like an ingenious device, well worth adding for the little cost! With those T fittings, I could slope the pipes into the opposite corner of the compressor, and just have one water release there, which simplifies the plumbing a lot.

Mine is 22mm ring and 13 mm drop and all my hoses are either 13 or 10mm bore with XF fittings. I took the view If I was spending on it, may as well future proof it

This is a good point. I think I'll go for 22mm copper for the main ring and the JG pushfit connectors.

 

[RWD3M]

Good thread, thank you! Do you have any issues with water at all?

No issues in the manifold but I do have a water separator/filter (self draining) just downstream of the compressor and each regulator has a water separator (not that I've ever seen any moisture in any of them) saying that, my compressor lives inside and I do drain the tank regularly.

I got all of my stuff from Duncan Rogers Engineering and if you were looking to go down the galv route I couldn't recommend them highly enough.

 

[Farside]

Here's some pics of how I did mine...

The water condenser (the output is at the bottom, so water runs off to the left and down into a draining leg with a large valve at the bottom).

How I've done the drop-legs. I just bent some copper in an inverted-U and led them down to a take-off.

The take-off points.

 

[premmington]

My workshop air system.

Hydrovane Single Phase

 

[bricol]

In a DIY domestic garage, do you really need that amount of air flow capability from a 22mm ring main? If it's just you using it, whatever you use is in effect fed by two 22mm lines - the limiting factor will be the size of connection from compressor to main, any fittings in it such as elbows, and the air line and connectors you use to the tool. Use long radius bends rather than elbows to keep flow rate high - short radius elbows kill the flow and drop the pressure at that flow.

I ran 12mm around my similarly sized garage, stuck a connection at the two front corners and middle of each wall, simply for convenience of use, with a retracting hose reel each front corner to drag out to cars or use inside. Never noticed any problem with amount of air needed.

 

[Maker]

Am I the only one who keeps their compressor beside the telly then?


Kidding, it's only temporary. Mum's been using it with a staple gun for upholstery.

 

[RWD3M]

In a DIY domestic garage, do you really need that amount of air flow capability from a 22mm ring main? ......

Whoever let need get in the way of want?!

 

[brightspark]

Whoever let need get in the way of want?!

a 3/4 bore is good for 90 psi @ 90 cfm 10 meters long

 

[Henrik]

a 3/4 bore is good for 90 psi @ 90 cfm 10 meters long

actually you raise a good point... especially as the integrated water trap T's arent' available as 22mm fittings.

 

[GRW]

In ignorance I bought a wee Clarke 50L with a 2hp (claimed) direct-drive motor.
It makes a right din, and I quickly found out that at a max pressure of 7 bar... its OK for portable tyre pumping duty and an airgun for blowing dustbin not a lit else.
Hence I just added a new to me (50yo) Ingersoll Rand Type 30. It's 150L I think, with a 2-pot 234 pump and a 1.5kw 1350rpm 1ph motor.
Ive not had chance to get some idea of how much more usable air ad performance this gives me yet though.
I've bunged the heavy beast on some large casters so I can move it about. Thinking to add a reducer for lower psi outlets as well as one at full chat (10 bar) straight off the Reciever.
I've toyed with the idea of a retractable hose....mounted on the compressor itself - is that a daft idea?