Show us your bench vice(s)

[Arc Tourist]

Nice photos Carsten. And by the way, welcome to the best and most interesting forum on the net.

 

[25.4_mechanic]

Thank you very much Mike, Danny, all,

Mike, I am just about to find out that it is really very interesting here.
Danny, so you saw that right away , feel free to call me Inch.

No, seriously, I've been reading along here for a while.

And the difference in units of measurement... you just have to learn to deal with it -> what Darwin really meant: not the strongest, not the smartest, the most flexible make the race.

I feel very comfortable here,
Thank you for having me.

And now please let's talk about how I can help this presumed Parkinson's back to its QR.
- The half-nut parts are here;
- You should be able to weld material onto the spike of the lower half-nut;
- The vice as such works very well;
- The sheet metal strip should not be a problem;
- For the spring I need measurements;
- The hand lever will be tricky;
- The most difficult should probably be the special serrated crown nut, here I would need a pattern (I have always wanted to cast iron, but also have a piece of GGL-25 here for filing, grinding, drilling).

How do I go about it? What parts could I even find instead of having to build?

Your view?

Good night,
until tomorrow

Carsten

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[Vono]

Welcome Carsten.
That Vice is just fabulous it really is. Really enjoyed the great photos.
I'm sure someone will be along shortly to answer your questions.
Best of luck.

 

[MattF]

Does anyone perhaps have a drawing or something similar for me, from which the difference between only a half nut and the two-piece nut of the Parkinson specific solution becomes clear?!?? Many thanks in advance!

This is a Parkinson half nut, so this is what it should be looking like. You can also see the adjuster nut. That's nothing hard to make. Just a sawtooth profile so that the flat bar will rise on the angled face, & latch/press against the flat face. It has a notch in the other face for the spring hook to locate into. Nothing you can't readily recreate with a saw & a file.

 

[25.4_mechanic]

Hello Vono
and thank you very much!

Hi MattF,
that looks almost exactly like the parts in my Woden 190/7A with the exception of the flat iron, which has a twist on mine and probably belongs that way:

Here the spring keeps pushing the half nut onto the spindle, the thread of the spindle pushes away from the thread of the half nut, allowing it to move away and transport the movable jaw with power - with the QR lever actuated, the spring force is overcome, the half nut moves away from the spindle, the movable part of the vice can be freely pushed in and pulled out. At the end, after releasing the lever, the half-nut presses back against the spindle, etc. ...
That is understood as far as it goes.

In contrast, in my Parkinson's-derivative-candidate, the mechanism seems to consist of a two-piece nut with a division of about 1/3 to 2/3.
In both parts of the nut the thread is equally pronounced and both parts seem to be of one piece, so to speak.

It looks very much like an industrial manufacture, not a tinkering job (apart from the subsequently added side plates, of course), see the two stamped zeros on one face of the part to indicate the right orientation.

And that - if it turns out to be true - would require that not only the lower part of the nut must be moved downwards, as in your Parkinson and my Woden, but the upper part of the nut has to be lifted upwards off the spindle before the QR function is given.

This would require a considerably more elaborate mechanism!

If this is incorrect, I must try to answer the question of how the repairer got to the upper part of the nut to at least regain the function of a normal vice after the QR-mechanism failed?!!?

- Did he make the upper part? Unlikely, too industrial looking.

- Did he have access to another similar vice? Unlikely, the top half doesn't look like a lower half nut turned upside down and cut off.

- Was there really a time when this much more elaborate mechanism was produced? At least possible, there would be enough space under the removable "lid" and access would also be given. Such a further closed thread would be suitable for much greater forces than a half nut. Perhaps it was only in later models that it was discovered that the half nut could absorb and transmit sufficiently high forces and that the disproportionately higher effort was no longer necessary, which saved a lot of costs.

In that case, the question remains: How would this double mechanism have worked?
Any suggestions?
Does anyone have a complete Parkinson with a removable lid?

Thank you,
have a wonderful Sunday,

Carsten

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[MattF]

The QR & half nut assembly is exactly the same on the Victorian Parkinson.



As I said though, you can't say what will definitely be on a particular vice, as unusual variants have occasionally cropped up.

 

[25.4_mechanic]

Thanks MattF!

Hmmm, should we then be dealing at my unknown specimen with a further development - by whomever - that seemed necessary to someone to accommodate greater forces, more precision or a longer life? (The latter did not quite work out that way).

Further development instead of predecessor because this specimen actually looks more modern in a way.

Which manufacturer would come into question?

And furthermore the question: How will this mechanism have worked?

Greets

Carsten

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[25.4_mechanic]

By the way, MattF:

You can also see the adjuster nut. That's nothing hard to make. Just a sawtooth profile so that the flat bar will rise on the angled face, & latch/press against the flat face. It has a notch in the other face for the spring hook to locate into. Nothing you can't readily recreate with a saw & a file.

Your metalworking skills must be well above mine, congratulations.

But what else can I do, I'll have to try it - but only when the function of the whole mechanism has been revealed ...

Thanks,

Carsten

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[MattF]

It's just a patience thing with making stuff like that nut. Slow work, but worth it when it's done.

 

[SteveB58]

I agree 25.4's vice has characteristics of the pre WWI Parkinson's, but never seen one quite like that, with a more 'modern' look to it. Looks well made.

Is there any sign of markings being filed off?
What width the jaws?

Of course, as well as Russian, Italian, Belgian and Polish makers, there were quality vices from Czech and an inventive Turkish vice maker, which sometimes had a look like this and their own patent quick release. Most of these marked their names.

Welcome 25.4, may we call you one inch? - don't let anyone half-inch your vices.

Metric or Imperial, which to work in? When I was about 10 and at primary school we had our foot rulers taken away and we were given 30cm replacements and told that we'd never need to use feet and inches again!. As an apprentice everything was metric, day release courses measured in SI units and so it continued until after two years at the Dockyard school we went to on the job training where everything was still Imperial. I don't think I used a metric nut and bold until 1982 on the Invincible class carriers, certainly micrometers and gauges were all imperial up until I left in 88.

So now I seem to flip easily between the two depending on what I'm doing, it's even been known to use both systems on the same job. I actually prefer the SI system and find it the more sensible system, despite what Mr Rees Mogg may say. Thankfully very few people under the age of 55 would know what a foot is.

 

[25.4_mechanic]

Good morning Steve,

really interesting, when were you in primary school approximately? Sounds like the transition started earlier than I thought.

But it's true, if life demands it and you don't resist, it's easy to learn to cope. For example, when I was a teenager (pre €) I lived in a port city on a border, with lots of duty-free shopping on ships, and we could easily convert several currencies into each other.

But that's what I'm particularly interested in now: How does a micrometer screw work in imperial units? In steps of 12 or in steps of 16 and doesn't it go down in decimal steps at some point?

It seems that some things were also left in inches in our country; apart from pipes, I can also think of vises:
I am currently restoring a 43kg, 6" Eikar from between 1920 (patent) and about 1944 (the Soviets are on the doorstep).

The 5/16" dowel pins (c) and 1/2" holding pieces (d), which were essential for the patent, were apparently made imperially by the German manufacturer Breitenfeld&Scholz ...

What I measure on the parts only allows this conclusion:

I continue to wonder, however, what the measurements on my perhaps-Parkinson patient mean, for they make no sense either metrically or imperially:
Clamping jaws 156.x_mm or 6⅛" and a bit, fastening nuts of the cover ⅞" wrench size and its thread not yet identified ...

Any suggestion is welcome!

A successful week to all
Greets

Carsten

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[SteveB58]

Good morning Steve,

really interesting, when were you in primary school approximately? Sounds like the transition started earlier than I thought.

But it's true, if life demands it and you don't resist, it's easy to learn to cope. For example, when I was a teenager (pre €) I lived in a port city on a border, with lots of duty-free shopping on ships, and we could easily convert several currencies into each other.

But that's what I'm particularly interested in now: How does a micrometer screw work in imperial units? In steps of 12 or in steps of 16 and doesn't it go down in decimal steps at some point?

It seems that some things were also left in inches in our country; apart from pipes, I can also think of vises:
I am currently restoring a 43kg, 6" Eikar from between 1920 (patent) and about 1944 (the Soviets are on the doorstep).

View attachment 314901

View attachment 314902

The 5/16" dowel pins (c) and 1/2" holding pieces (d), which were essential for the patent, were apparently made imperially by the German manufacturer Breitenfeld&Scholz ...
View attachment 314903
What I measure on the parts only allows this conclusion:

View attachment 314904

I continue to wonder, however, what the measurements on my perhaps-Parkinson patient mean, for they make no sense either metrically or imperially:
Clamping jaws 156.x_mm or 6⅛" and a bit, fastening nuts of the cover ⅞" wrench size and its thread not yet identified ...

Any suggestion is welcome!

A successful week to all
Greets

Carsten

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Morning Carsten.

I left primary school in 1970 at the age of 11. It's been 30+ years since I picked up a micrometer, I've got a couple in the shed, I'll dig one out and see if I can still use it. I've reverted to the digital caliper these days, something no tradesman would have used back in the day.

Never understood the resistance to the metric system in the UK, it was never wholeheartedly embraced. We still drink beer in pints, measure long distance in miles and, if its hot, measure the temperature in Fahrenheit. All a bit odd as the SI system is the only one taught in schools.

Steve

 

[25.4_mechanic]

Hi Steve,

What you say makes me think of Jim Hacker, MP, in the "English sausage" controversy:
"They turned our pints into litres and our yard into metres, but enough is enough!".

That was circa 1983 and fiction, but wasn't it only a few weeks or months ago that this very argument or something very similar about the English sausage actually happened and was fought out in all bitterness...?

You mentioned Rees-Mogg: he opened a branch office in the Republic of Ireland in time for his investment company.

So you are only a few years ahead of me, we can remember similar things.

By the way, I still don't use digital calipers, I call them "wish irons" together with the calipers with analogue clock display. The temptation or danger is simply too great to push the expected result, "confirmation bias" is what they call it in aircraft accident investigation. If possible, I even turn the scale away from me when measuring.
Otherwise I'm probably just not accurate enough or I lack a certain feeling.

Which helps me with miles/kilometres: I have an old MotoGuzzi with US speedo, with that on the road it always goes speedo value divided by 5 times 8 and road sign value divided by 8 times 5, it's quite easy to live with.

There is only one thing that overtaxes my flexibility: I can't get horsepower out of my head when it comes to combustion engines, I can't even remember the factor, kW is reserved in my brain for electric things. I don't know why.

Fahrenheit/Celsius is just a bit unwieldy, but you get by.

It gets complicated with fuel economy because the concepts are so different: in our country, fuel consumption per specified distance is given (l/100km), in US, range per specified amount of fuel (mls/gal.).
It's not hard to understand, but it's several calculation steps - how do you do it in the UK at this point in time?

Hopefully we're not digressing too far, it's about vises and which world mine belongs to ....

Kind regards

Carsten

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[Lewis_RX8]

My old 74 died today. I'll admit to swinging on the handle with a cheater bar

Been there got the T shirt and wont be doing it again

Inspired my idea of a trying to get a hydraulic press rather than using my vice as one

 

[Dr.Al]

Morning Carsten.

I left primary school in 1970 at the age of 11. It's been 30+ years since I picked up a micrometer, I've got a couple in the shed, I'll dig one out and see if I can still use it. I've reverted to the digital caliper these days, something no tradesman would have used back in the day.

Never understood the resistance to the metric system in the UK, it was never wholeheartedly embraced. We still drink beer in pints, measure long distance in miles and, if its hot, measure the temperature in Fahrenheit. All a bit odd as the SI system is the only one taught in schools.

Steve

I agree with you about not understanding the UK resistance to metric. However, I think the hot temperatures in Fahrenheit is fast disappearing. I hate it when people use Fahrenheit (especially when they refer to it simply as "degrees" and assume that it's obvious that they're using an antiquated non-sensical system!)

What you say makes me think of Jim Hacker, MP, in the "English sausage" controversy:
"They turned our pints into litres and our yard into metres, but enough is enough!".

That was circa 1983 and fiction, but wasn't it only a few weeks or months ago that this very argument or something very similar about the English sausage actually happened and was fought out in all bitterness...?

So many things in the news seem to have been covered by Yes, Minister. It has to be the best comedy series of all time in my opinion.

It gets complicated with fuel economy because the concepts are so different: in our country, fuel consumption per specified distance is given (l/100km), in US, range per specified amount of fuel (mls/gal.).
It's not hard to understand, but it's several calculation steps - how do you do it in the UK at this point in time?

It's a mess in the UK: economy is measured in miles-per-gallon (of course, that's a different gallon to the US one as they have smaller pints than ours) but fuel is sold in litres. So if you want to work out the cost of a journey, it's:

(distance_in_miles) * (litres in a gallon) * (price for a litre) / (miles per gallon)

I think I've got that right! So if your car does 50 to the gallon it's

distance * 4.546 * price / 50



In Europe, if you know your car uses 5 litres/100 km and you want to go 200 km, you'll need 10 litres and it'll cost 10 × the price per litre. Even America is better than the UK: distance * price / mpg.

You might think all that is a bit academic, but it can be useful when you hire a car and they want you to return it with the same amount of fuel you put in and you want to be whiter-than-white but not over-spend. When you pick the car up, reset the trip counter and reset the fuel economy computer thing. Then when you're going back, look at the distance you've travelled and the average fuel economy and you can easily (unless you're in the UK) work out exactly how much fuel you've used and hence how much to put back in.


Sorry... that's VERY off-topic for a vice thread!

 

[MattF]

I continue to wonder, however, what the measurements on my perhaps-Parkinson patient mean, for they make no sense either metrically or imperially:
Clamping jaws 156.x_mm or 6⅛" and a bit,

The jaws are always a fraction oversize. They're never exactly 4", 6" etc.

Threads should be BSW.

 

[25.4_mechanic]

So many things in the news seem to have been covered by Yes, Minister. It has to be the best comedy series of all time in my opinion.

I am really amazed at how often I think the same thing.
Yes, the best comedy series I know.
The two series (Minister/Prime Minister) and my Private Eye subscription actually tell me almost everything I need to know, not just about politics in the UK.

It's a mess in the UK: economy is measured in miles-per-gallon (of course, that's a different gallon to the US one as they have smaller pints than ours) but fuel is sold in litres. So if you want to work out the cost of a journey, it's:

(distance_in_miles) * (litres in a gallon) * (price for a litre) / (miles per gallon)

I think I've got that right! So if your car does 50 to the gallon it's

distance * 4.546 * price / 50

Thank you for the explanation and my deepest condolences.

One longs for the golden days when everything was better and it was 1 Sovereign = 4 Crown = 8 Half Crown = 10 Florin = 20 Shilling = 60 Groat = 240 Penny
= 960 Farthing = 1 Pound Sterling.



On topic:

The jaws are always a fraction oversize. They're never exactly 4", 6" etc.

Thank you.
Good, so I have a generous 6-incher then.

Threads should be BSW.

That's what I've resolved to do today, go out now and report back later.

Till then

Carsten

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[SteveB58]

Right then Carsten, found the micrometer and it came back to me very quickly. Strange, you use something so often that it becomes almost inate and you don't even think about it. Right here goes. The large divisions on an imperial mic are in 1/10 of an inch, each is subdivided in to 4 parts, so each smaller division is 1/40 of an inch. The barrel is marked 0-25 and each revolution of the barrel move it 1/40 of an inch so each small division on the barrel is 1/1000 of an inch.

 

[MattF]

I am really amazed at how often I think the same thing.
Yes, the best comedy series I know.
The two series (Minister/Prime Minister) and my Private Eye subscription actually tell me almost everything I need to know, not just about politics in the UK.


Thank you for the explanation and my deepest condolences.

One longs for the golden days when everything was better and it was 1 Sovereign = 4 Crown = 8 Half Crown = 10 Florin = 20 Shilling = 60 Groat = 240 Penny
= 960 Farthing = 1 Pound Sterling.



On topic:

Thank you.
Good, so I have a generous 6-incher then.

Ironically, after I said they're usually oversize, just checked my 8A out of curiosity, & it's about an ⅛" under 6".

 

[25.4_mechanic]

puuuh, that was a bit shady outside and in the barn, clear sky, the moon very bright and close, that could give the first ground frost this night ...

The large divisions on an imperial mic are in 1/10 of an inch, each is subdivided in to 4 parts, so each smaller division is 1/40 of an inch. The barrel is marked 0-25 and each revolution of the barrel move it 1/40 of an inch so each small division on the barrel is 1/1000 of an inch.

Thank you very much for your diligence, Steve.
Then it's not as complicated as I had imagined, you can work with it quite well.
It's also funny that with the factor of 40 the thousandth of an inch comes to roughly 1mm over the thumb.

Ironically, after I said they're usually oversize, just checked my 8A out of curiosity, & it's about an ⅛" under 6".

Not bad, nice punch line, Matt.
So we see it all quite casually today, a bit more relaxed ... ... what's 1/8 between friends ...

Of course, Breitenfeld & Scholz didn't have anything like that in Bunzlau in southern Silesia, today known as Bolesławiec.
I just measured the jaws of the 150mm Eikar "E" in passing: 150mm, full stop!

It's not that easy with the Parkinson suspect.
The cover nuts were ok, 7/8" spanner size, 14G/" should amount to 7/16".

With the screws that hold the QR on the other hand:

I don't know about you, but I see two different threads on the bolt ...

so it's better to clean them properly first.

After
brake cleaner,
toothbrush,
grease solvent,
citric acid,
ultrasonic bath,
you can see more clearly:

Indeed, M6 at the bottom, but 19G/" at the top ...
However, I did not find 19G/" in any of the tables for Witworth standard threads except for pipe threads, a completely different animal and much larger.

With more light and stronger reading glasses, I have now settled on 20G/", which brings us to 1/4" thread.

But how on earth does the M6 thread get onto the 1/4" bolt?

Shouldn't one assume that there wouldn't be much material left over from the attempt alone? But here it seems to have become more material ...?!?

Did someone roll an M6 thread onto it? How? Only on the lower part of the bolt?


Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks.

Have a good evening everyone,

Carsten

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