Swapping to electrode negative

[Barking Mat]

I did a google search regarding swapping stinger lead to negative on a AC Welder .
Here is the interesting reply
View attachment 478795

Mate, you need a D.C. Welder to swap polarities.

An A.C. Welder by definition just won't work.

 

[LOXLEY FORGE]

I'm sorry, but this reply is just nonsense. Perhaps it was composed by an AI "bot". By definition, AC is simply AC, there is no polarity. And most machines do not have a "switch" to change polarity, the leads are swapped over. The switch would have to be rated at 200 Amps......!

I was surprised at the reply myself .
But AC aka,
ALTERNATING CURRENT.
Isn't that what was discribed?

 

[Barking Mat]

I was surprised at the reply myself .
But AC aka,
ALTERNATING CURRENT.
Isn't that what was discribed?

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

 

[LOXLEY FORGE]

The AI response is somewhat confusing. Whichever way round the ground and electrode cables are connected on an AC welder, should give the same result. Try swapping the connections over several times and running a bead each time, to see if the phenomenon is repeatable. Try measuring the voltage between the ground and electrode terminals, using a voltmeter set to AC volts and then DC volts, and seeing what the readings are. For a pure AC output, the DC reading should be close to zero. If the DC reading is quite large, it may be that someone has fitted a rectifier inside the welder.

It's got me scratching my head.

 

[Barking Mat]

Google / YouTube the difference between A.C. And D.C. It will really help your understanding.

 

[Barking Mat]

Have noticed the amp control knob takes almost a full revaluation before it takes up the slack between +/--.
Welder was under a bench in the shadows so when I was trying to tune the amps to perfection I didn't Doh!
I also have one of these inverters Off carboot for cheap only been used a couple of times so like new but a 200 amp version .
Works well so I got a used scratch start Tig kit for it and a few disposable Argon tanks, new tungstons and a few filler rods .
I paid more for the Argon than the full welder and kit.
So teaching myself Tig via
u tube so that will keep me occupied for a while.
View attachment 478547

As said earlier, dump the buzz box (A.C. Welder), try with this unit which gives you D.C.

 

[eddie49]

I was surprised at the reply myself .
But AC aka,
ALTERNATING CURRENT.
Isn't that what was discribed?

That was indeed a description of alternating current, with the two sides of the supply switching between plus and minus 50 or 60 times per second, but the words polarity, straight, and reverse should not be applied to that definition. They have specific meanings in the context of arc welding only.

 

[chrismac]

It's got me scratching my head.

Honesty, stop scratching now, you will have no hair left....
There kind people here trying to help you understand, eddie49 for one, believe what he is telling you.

Get your DC inverter and do a couple of test runs with the polarities changed and you will see a huge difference.

Good luck getting to the bottom of your itch.

 

[Farside]

I did a google search regarding swapping stinger lead to negative on a AC Welder .
Here is the interesting reply
View attachment 478795

It'a an AI bot, therefore likely bolleaux.
(it is, by the way)

 

[Jack Ryan]

Bohler "Q" and "Phoenix Blau" ...

Oerlikon ..

Magmaweld ESR11

I stand corrected. The 6013 is a High titania potassium electrode and Potassium is usually added to stabilise DCEP. Not in the case of 6013 though which cam be used with either polarity.

Sorry about that.

Jack

 

[Jack Ryan]

That was indeed a description of alternating current, with the two sides of the supply switching between plus and minus 50 or 60 times per second, but the words polarity, straight, and reverse should not be applied to that definition. They have specific meanings in the context of arc welding only.

The bot has conflated AC, which periodically changes between EP and EN, and manually changing the polarity when using DC.

It is hard not to step over the line when talking about AC, cleaning and penetration. In that context, AC has periods of EP and EN. On the other hand, the terms straight and reverse polarity are, in my opinion, obsolete and should be dropped. More often when some says he is using reverse polarity, he means the opposite from normal. EP and EN are unambiguous.

I still use an ARC welder though, and call MAG welding MIG welding, so all our favorite terms are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Jack

 

[LOXLEY FORGE]

First thing I found screw had come out of the mount, and other one was loose.
Found it rolling around in the base.
Fan had come off but slipped on again .
I crossed my fingers that the motor was good .
I spun the motor ,it rotated OK.
Next I checked the stinger and new clamp .
Both were quite slack,so I worked the nuts a few times before retightening to get a better contact.
Cleaned out tge bit of dust in the base .
Checked the free play in the amps wheel ,as I stated before there appeared to be a lot of free play ..
There is no free play as such only the two springs above and below the threaded adjuster nut were flexing a bit .
I checked all contacts for tightness even pulling them apart and clicking the. Vack together .
Only thing I didn't check was the cooling fan connections DOH!
I should have traced where the motor takes its power from .
Should the motor start when the welder is turned on?
As it didn't run when I switched welder ON.
I CHECKEDTHAT EVERYTHING WAS AS STANDARD .
Nothing added or bodged .
Zipped it back up did the
AC.... DC Read outs .
Leads Not Fitted.
I Wound amp wheel to minimum.
Took AC readings 36 to 41 volts.
Turned up to 70 amps according to tge welders scale.
Maximum was AC 50 volts
ON A GOOD KNOWN TESTER.
Turned up to max amps .
AC showed 47 to 51 volts.
Says on welder info 45 Hz .
I tried the test leads reversed there was a slight difference
When reversed but as an example 47 against 45 volts.
Even 160 amps at full power
Made very little difference.
I TESTED ON DC AS WELL.
ONLY RECORDED 1 to 2 volts at all ranges.
Welding tests were next .
See photos.

 

[LOXLEY FORGE]

This was a piece of 1/4" checker plate.
I ground the checkers off and dug grinder in to find clean Bright metal
I ran 4 x 1/8" e6013 at
105 amps approx.
The checker plate had a section cut off for another job at some point.
So I re built it with 4 layers re grinding in between each.
Welded all this time ok striking ark was good but if I stopped I had to knock flux off to get metal contact again.
I then decided to go for broke cranked to max amps of 160 .
I put 1.5 rods down before thermal cut out kicked in .
Fan was Not running so will need to investigate.
I presume it will. Be 240 volt .
If anyone can advise if fan should run all the time or only when it gets to a certain temp.
Please have a good look at the fan picture what's the extra casing on the motor ?
Could I run hot wire from on off switch to power it to Test or Hot wire it to run all the time.
The weld you see close to vice jaws is at 105 amps laid flat clamped into vice .
Before I started to build up the 1/4" edge another two passes and grinding got it levelled up apart from the corner which still needs a bit more work.
Next photo is coming.

 

[LOXLEY FORGE]

Left run at 105 amp just laying the rod on flux and letting fer burn its a bit cold.
Next two are at full power 160 amps before Thernal overload kicked in.
Flux just pinged off.
Stood leaning on side of bench as I welded these last 2 runs .
But wait I can smell smoke and my pinky finger is getting Hot .
**** my gloves on fire.
Applied a few wraps of gaffer tape to the glove and soldiered on.
Your thoughts and advise appreciated .

 

[Bornfree]

I don't think your welder is putting out the current you think. That left hand run doesn't look anywhere near 105 amps
The other two runs look closer to that current.

 

[LOXLEY FORGE]

I have come to same conclusion regarding loss of amps
I wonder if its anything to do with the fan not working so amps degrading as the welder over heats then trips out.

 

[minimutly]

No, the fan stops, or rather lengthens the time between cut outs due to overheating, doesn't affect amps.
You have an AC buzzbox, can be used to weld mild or stainless steel (with the right rods), even cast iron, with preheat and some peening after...
Simplest welder there is, carry on learning. The fan motor is really simple, check for 240V on the connections.

 

[Mark 2]

This is the machine at one of the places I work at. Used in the building of the channel tunnel. So, dc of either polarity, ac at 80v and another ac variant which I can't quite make out. Answers on a postcard.

 

[aesmith]

Fan was Not running so will need to investigate.
I presume it will. Be 240 volt .
If anyone can advise if fan should run all the time or only when it gets to a certain temp.

A welder of that sort, I'd expect the fan to be 240V and to run all the time the welder's switched on.

 

[LOXLEY FORGE]

No, the fan stops, or rather lengthens the time between cut outs due to overheating, doesn't affect amps.
You have an AC buzzbox, can be used to weld mild or stainless steel (with the right rods), even cast iron, with preheat and some peening after...
Simplest welder there is, carry on learning. The fan motor is really simple, check for 240V on the connections.

I tested the original fan motor shows 240v direct off the Welder On/Off switch.
Motor would not run looked Black around the windings .
I went on the hunt for a replacement.
I had a scrap De humidifier in the garage.
I decided to take it to bits to see what fan motors it had .
found this 230v 45Hz.
Same as tge original.
Temporary wired to the original wiring away she went .
Fortunately in the correct rotation.
However it would have still worked as a pulling fan bringing cold air into the welder.
Not as good as sucking the heat out.
So I got lucky .
.
Same shaft size with a left hand treaded nut on the end .
Original fan fitted it perfectly.
Only issue was how to mount it.
The Black piece on the top in picture is from the original motor.
Having no way of bolting it down I used a strong CA glue.
Left it to cure a couple of hours then filled all the gaps with hot melt glue designed to attach dint puller suckers to get damage out on accident repairs, much stronger adhesive than standard hot melt.
To cold in workshop today so fitting and a bit of soldering ,shrink sleeve will have to wait till it warm's up a bit.
.......
I have a clamp multi meter that works on AC/DC.
If I clamp it over one of the welding cables would I get a reading .
Which cable to clamp stinger or earth.aka Before or After the ark weld?
Yellow paint on fan I put on as it is difficult to see if original fan was working .