The British motor/motorcycle industry - discuss

[Bobupndown]

A lot of interesting posts relating to this on the recent VW Amarok thread and plenty of opinions about how and why it went wrong.
Why not have a dedicated thread so we can moan about the loss of our once World beating manufacturers?
I grew up surrounded by British Leyland's finest (I say BL but obviously they changed their name every other week so I mean everything from BMC to Rover) Morris Minors, Minis, Marinas, Ambassadors, SD1 Rovers. My dad was very brand loyal.
I've still got a soft spot for anything which came out of the BL factories. My love of Minis which began as a 2 year old was obviously as a result of this indoctrination, Im about to turn 50 and still got one.

 

[redlig]

Good idea ,but I'm afraid it will just end up raking over the bones of a dead industry .20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing ,but fun .

 

[Dee J]

One of the key joys of UK cars and motorcycles, was also their achillies heel (though the same can be said of other old-world countries too).... That of very slow model development... Many bodyshells, model designations, engines and many accessories remained virtually unchanged for decades. Allowing not only a comfortable familiarity and loyalty to a marque, or even an engine variant. Amazing spares availability too.
But this was mostly a result of low investment and shortsighted management, and once any competent competition developed then all was lost. Fun while it lasted.

 

[minimutly]

Indeed, the so called worldbeating metro - 998 A series engine...
Maestro (ugly, but quite competent, as long as you weren't looking for a light switch in the dark), A series or worked over Maxi engine. The diesel was competent but agricultural.
Earlier Honda engined collaborations were better. I had a Rover 220 gti, montego block with 16v head, loved it, one of the few cars I couldn't fault, wish I'd kept it.
But yes, lack of product development was a key issue, lack of production improvements. And then blaming old farts (big chunk of their market) for not checking their water levels for the K series gaskets issue....
My own feeling on the k series - should never have been made into any bigger than a 1400 - without a longer block to accomadate thicker liners. Otherwise a fantastic engine, years ahead of the competition.

 

[finyuk2005]

Indeed, the so called worldbeating metro - 998 A series engine...
Maestro (ugly, but quite competent, as long as you weren't looking for a light switch in the dark), A series or worked over Maxi engine. The diesel was competent but agricultural.
Earlier Honda engined collaborations were better. I had a Rover 220 gti, montego block with 16v head, loved it, one of the few cars I couldn't fault, wish I'd kept it.
But yes, lack of product development was a key issue, lack of production improvements. And then blaming old farts (big chunk of their market) for not checking their water levels for the K series gaskets issue....
My own feeling on the k series - should never have been made into any bigger than a 1400 - without a longer block to accomadate thicker liners. Otherwise a fantastic engine, years ahead of the competition.

I had a few 1.4 K series rovers, and absolutely loved them! as long as you warmed it up properly before you ragged the **** out of it they handled it just fine!
Really fun to drive and loved to rev!

 

[Shox Dr]

It's not all dead. Ive just bought a New Triumph Motorcycle. Built in England on a brand new line at Hinckley.

 

[Bobupndown]

I had a loan car when my wife's Mini Cooper was in for a service (proper Rover Mini Cooper) a Rover 200 with the 1.1 k series in it, god it was slooooowww.
Also drove a Freelander 1 with the 1.8 k series and felt it was very underpowered.

Then there was the head gasket issue... the plague of 75, MGF and Freelander 1 owners.

 

[Robotstar5]

Having worked for the British car industry and it's suppliers for most of my working life I'm probably biased
Spent nearly 20 years with Rover and saw the launch of the Metro, 200/400 etc. interestingly when the Metro first came out it had class leading Cd (drag coefficient) and side impact safety due to the door design, in front impacts manufacturers were allowed up to 1.5" rearward travel on the steering column at 30 mph, the Metro had ¾" movement even at higher speeds.
The K series engine was fine in it's original design form of 1.1 & 1.4, it was only when they tried pushing it to 1.8 the problems started.
Cars built at "the Austin", Rover etc. always had a reputation for poor build quality, but when I worked for ABB I got to visit Ford & Vauxhall plants only to see they built their cars the same, such as seeing a hinged bar inserted in the tailgate aperture to "rack" the bodyshell so the tailgate would fit properly.

 

[Morrisman]

Talking about this just last night, Royal Enfield bikes. The tooling was sold off to India decades ago and they continued to produce bikes for years, made zillions of them. Then they branches out into newer designs and are doing really well.

The original 350 single has been redesigned to (more) modern specifications but retains the original quaint old classic style. I’ve always wanted one, but never quite got around to it yet. I’ve heard they are electronically limited to 72mph top speed, but I’m sure there’s a workaround to reach the true 75mph max.

 

[Nomad]

I've had a couple of BL cars (and am still using a Marina), nothing exiting but they do what they need to do, they were often rough and agricultural when compared to the foreign cars of their time.

My previous car was a 1275 Hunter with overdrive, on paper it's similar to the Marina but it was a whole lot nicer to drive, more refined, more power, more relaxed due to OD, and many parts (suspension, wheels, brakes) are interchangeable with Ford making it easy to find used part for cheap motoring.

K-series is a great engine but needs some sympathy which is often missing from motoring public. It's also easy to go wrong when rebuilding which is why many garage won't do engine work. I had a 214 Sei, when I got it the thing was dog slow, a 300 mile motorway run blew the cobwebs out then it was fun and nippy but a bit low on power, sweet but nothing special.

A lass was living with me last year, she had picked up a Rover k-series 214/216 for daily transport. I got a panic call to say a water hose had blown off. I went out, refitted it and told her to get it to a workshop asap to get it checked properly. She didn't I got another call 3 months later to say it had popped again, this time it blew the headgaskjet. We took it to the local workshop - they had fittted a replacement motor for the previous owner so he could sell the car - they had so many problems with it when he owned it, they refused to even look at it. The car got scrapped because of the headgasket. For comparison I bought an old VW golf with a blown headgasket, I did the work in an afternoon on the driveway and didn't even need to check the head for damage as I knew it would be ok.

A lot of British industry in the 60s/70s (cars and bikes) could be easily recognised as a modern version of the pre-war machines. The overseas industry had been wrecked by WW2 so their factories and cars designs were built "new" by the 1960s - which is why Japanese & German cars were years ahead of the UK in development.

A magazine article I saw reported that machines from a motorcycle factory had been bought up and the new owners were wrecking crankcases when they tried to use the machines to drill them.
After speaking to operators at the old site, they found the vertical drill needed an old floorboard held against the motor when in use to stop the drill shaft vibrating - the machines were so worn out they were otherwise unusable !

 

[Morrisman]

A lot of British industry in the 60s/70s (cars and bikes) could be easily recognised as a modern version of the pre-war machines. The overseas industry had been wrecked by WW2 so their factories and cars designs were built "new" by the 1960s - which is why Japanese & German cars were years ahead of the UK in development.

Another issue was that the ‘defeated’ countries were denied a military for decades, which left them without the huge costs we ‘winners’ had to rebuild our country, our military, their country etc.

Thus they huge resources to devote to research and development in transport etc.

I did hear somewhere that Japan broke the ‘rules’ of their surrender agreement when they named the Suzuki Katana motorcycle. Apparently they were forbidden from using anything remotely related to war or violence in any way, shape or form. Katana is some sort of war sword, apparently. I don’t think anybody actually complained about it, 30+ years after VJ Day.

 

[dobbslc]

I’ve heard they are electronically limited to 72mph top speed, but I’m sure there’s a workaround to reach the true 75mph max.

With blurred vision would you be able to tell what speed you were doing anyway ?

 

[Shox Dr]

With blurred vision would you be able to tell what speed you were doing anyway ?

That's warp drive kicking in and out

 

[dobbslc]

Christ you need to balance the dilithium crystals
What would Scotty think?

 

[Erie Fred]

It's not all dead. Ive just bought a New Triumph Motorcycle. Built in England on a brand new line at Hinckley.

We have a Royal Enfield motorcycle parked in the lot most every day with good weather.
It looks to be new, IIRC there is a dealer nearby.
Are these not made in the UK ?

Royal enfield motorcycles

www.google.com

 

[daleyd]

Talking about this just last night, Royal Enfield bikes. The tooling was sold off to India decades ago and they continued to produce bikes for years, made zillions of them. Then they branches out into newer designs and are doing really well.

The original 350 single has been redesigned to (more) modern specifications but retains the original quaint old classic style. I’ve always wanted one, but never quite got around to it yet. I’ve heard they are electronically limited to 72mph top speed, but I’m sure there’s a workaround to reach the true 75mph max.

The problem with the British bike industry was that they were producing the same old machines but wanting top money for them. When Enfield went to India they were available for peanuts (relatively). They’ve crept back up in price subsequently (thank hipsters for that!) but for a long time they were a cheap mode of transport. Same as the Hindustan Ambassador car, ex 50’s/60’s British car and tooling but continued for decades after in India.

 

[Erie Fred]

That's warp drive kicking in and out

"ludicrous Speed'

 

[Nomad]

The problem with the British bike industry was that they were producing the same old machines but wanting top money for them. When Enfield went to India they were available for peanuts (relatively). They’ve crept back up in price subsequently (thank hipsters for that!) but for a long time they were a cheap mode of transport. Same as the Hindustan Ambassador car, ex 50’s/60’s British car and tooling but continued for decades after in India.

A lot of common UK car designs were sold overseas and continued for many years after they were discontinued here showing there is / was a market for a basic car at the right price.

I just found out the Ital was still being made in China as late as 1998

The Morris Ital Made in China. | ChinaCarHistory

chinacarhistory.com

The Hillman Hunter was the base for the Pakyan in Iran and was their national car until 2005 (saloons were produced until 2005, pickups until 2015 !)
https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/hillman/hunter/paykan/

It just goes to show that quality is timeless

 

[Shox Dr]

We have a Royal Enfield motorcycle parked in the lot most every day with good weather.
It looks to be new, IIRC there is a dealer nearby.
Are these not made in the UK ?

Royal enfield motorcycles

www.google.com

Built in India now, nd have been for a long time. Cheap bikes, the likes of Triumph have brought out a load of sub 500cc bikes to compete with them here (UK) and in India. A new (Indian Built) 400 trump is less than 2.5k in India (about £6.5k here)

 

[addjunkie]

A lot of common UK car designs were sold overseas and continued for many years after they were discontinued here showing there is / was a market for a basic car at the right price.

I just found out the Ital was still being made in China as late as 1998

The Morris Ital Made in China. | ChinaCarHistory

chinacarhistory.com

The Hillman Hunter was the base for the Pakyan in Iran and was their national car until 2005 (saloons were produced until 2005, pickups until 2015 !)
https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/hillman/hunter/paykan/

It just goes to show that quality is timeless

Mk1 astra tooling went to Korea too.

A big issue with uk car and bike industry was attitude post war. We are established with a good product, being built in older ways in older factories.

Japan, France and Germany all had to restart post war with new kit and new factories promoting a more driven attitude.

The post war unions also took control of the workers driving for better terms and conditions no matter what, often at the expense of the industry too. This also slowed the staid management from investment and evolving into new factories and practices until it was a bit late.

I fear what industry we have left maybe damaged following the next election if the outcomes are as predicted and the hard left reappears out of the wood work. But thats politics so best not discussed.