Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[premmington]

Some EV adopters on this thread are pretty defensive. OK, it's pretty common to feel the need & want to justify their choice, & what they spent a lot of money on.
But then we also see a sort of sniffy dismissal of those who aren't enamoured by EV's as though we are some sort of luddite or neanderthal (or just plain stupid).

I'd like to point out, that being put off an EV by the negatives (factor in the buy cost, its useful life, reliability, repair costs, range, the hassle & very slow speed of recharging etc etc), and add in the fact that there are vehicles available (& have been for the last 3-decades at least) that don't have these drawbacks..... doesn't make a person a conspiracy theorist, anti-technology or dumb.

E.g. @premmington Works on cars including hybrids & EV's, gets to see & understands the inner workings at a far deeper level than quite probably any other poster - and his assessment, his (very) informed decision... is that they aren't a suitable replacement for his ICE car.

@sako243 gets told he can pay to import a hugely expensive EV to tow loads with, when he can use an ICE with no range or fuelling issues for a tiny fraction of the cost and risks.

It might just be that instead of being backward, outdated & thick, we might just be the smart ones huh?

@GRW

Don't get me wrong - I am not anti EV at all. I don't think I am a luddite either

It is that I don't buy/run new cars for myself - I tend to buy a 5/6 year old car and run it till it is 10/12 years old. I have more than one car at a time (wifey/loaners). Personally I would not have an EV for a minute longer than the initial warranty period - plus I don't trust extended warranty terms and conditions - I just don't - put it another way - if these were so good - I would not be so busy.

Simply put... I am just not or ever will be a new car buyer...

I have driven/roadtested loads of different makes/models of EV/hybrid cars. Some are nice to drive - some are not.

I have never done a long journey in one - or to be honest used another type of charger/app - with the exception of workshop chargers - I have been and unplugged serveral that will not charge at public chargers - (so I have unplugged loads - but never plugged one in).

------

But to be honest - I would not own a modern Euro6 adblue diesel either for myself. I would assume those on this forum - that don't have an EV/Hybrid - will be mostly running one of these.


It is not that I don't care about the planet - I do - I have moved from running big cars to smaller tiny little straight petrol ones. I do struggle with stop/start and I have to fight with my conscience - when I am in a car and the starter is just cutting in all the while - traffic light to traffic light - not to hit the button to turn this function off.

I doubt I will ever own a full EV myself - but "you can never say never!"

I doubt the "2035 ban on ICE" will ever happen and if it does it will be a "watered down version"

I can see cars being sold new - on five year ownership PHP deals - then go for a costed in at time of purchase recycling exchange type of arrangement.

EV's are getting better - they will get better. The proven tech and infrastructure will come slowly - but it will come!

The car as a main stream entity is only 100years old - LPG came and went - high speed diesel engines came and are going - EV's are coming - but sure as "eggs are eggs" - something else will come in future... It will...

 

[premmington]

Might I refer you to BMWs less than stellar track record with their M60, M52 and N57 internal combustion engines in certain circumstances? BMW (and other high end manufacturers as well including JLR) having serious propulsion issues is hardly a new thing. At least BMW EVs have some value when their electronics break. Other EV manufacturers have done quite a good job of keeping their electronics, batteries and motors working for the lifetime of the vehicles, hybrids are by their nature more complex and likely to have more issues. Also, just because one poster has decided that their use doesn't suit an electric vehicle does not mean that the rest of us have to follow.

I run a petrol, two diesels and an electric. Thankfully although I am qualified to work on and have access to all the correct HV tools & equipment I have significantly less work to do on my electric vehicle than anything else even though it is the vehicle of choice for my wife. In the last month I have replaced clutch hydraulics, an exhaust and am trying to get time for vanos solenoid replacements and an oil change - we will see these jobs becoming less routine as time marches on. I am conscious that the next generation of mechanics need to be able to tackle braking systems, battery cell replacement, electrical troubleshooting, tyres, aircon servicing and the like rather replacing turbos, injectors and the like. I think EVs will be good for one man band mobile mechanics with low overheads and good for the customer who will spend less money with main dealerships.

I think this will be the death of the Indie garage trade. Less servicing to do - less of everything. The real problem is - modern cars are not "stand alone devices anymore" - they are networked and update themselves.

I don't think EV's will be good for mobile mechanics out of vans at all. You wanna see how much stuff has to come off one to get to batteries and safety boxes. You could not do this down someones driveway without lifting gear - you just could not!

 

[GRW]

@GRW

Don't get me wrong - I am not anti EV at all.

It is that I don't buy/run new cars for myself - I tend to buy a 5/6 year old car and run it till it is 10/12 years old. I have more than one car at a time (wifey/loaners). Personally I would not have an EV for a minute longer than the initial warranty period - plus I don't trust extended warranty terms and conditions - I just don't - put it another way - if these were so good - I would not be so busy.

Simply put... I am just not or ever will be a new car buyer...

I have driven/roadtested loads of different makes/models of EV/hybrid cars. Some are nice to drive - some are not.

I have never done a long journey in one - or to be honest used another type of charger/app - with the exception of workshop chargers - I have been and unplugged serveral that will not charge at public chargers - (so I have unplugged loads - but never plugged one in).

------

But to be honest - I would not own a modern Euro6 adblue diesel either for myself. I would assume those on this forum - that don't have an EV/Hybrid - will be mostly running one of these.


It is not that I don't care about the planet - I do - I have moved from running big cars to smaller tiny little straight petrol ones. I do struggle with stop/start and I have to fight with my conscience - when I am in a car and the starter is just cutting in all the while - traffic light to traffic light - not to hit the button to turn this function off.

I doubt I will ever own a full EV myself - but "you can never say never!"

I'm not "Anti" EV either. (I own an E-mtb - not the same thing of course - and certainly not without the same reliability/cost issues & concerns).

I do however have the persons view that where an EV makes most sense, is in the small car / short journey / commute / retired person types of scenario (made of course even more viable in cities where its generally low-speeds & where ULEZ & the ilk hamstrings the competition).
(There's a strong case for using a variety of alternatives to the car altogether in the EV's most suitable environment also mind).
Even in its ideal Environment, the EV cannot be considered an economical way to commute when you consider the investment cost.

Outside of this role, to me the EV's limitations on range, & the time and hassle extending the range, the Load-lugging limits & the big impact of load upon range/distance between charges (& all the Apps, route-planning grief, waiting time etc) - would to me get "old" & become a royal PITA, & fast.

We have EV-owning posters explaining how easy it is (& to me it sounds the opposite compared to how zero planning is needed in my ICE) to do long journeys. My take? No, its not easy, just not impossible, & nowhere near as easy as the ICE. (OK, over time this should improve.... but the Apps etc Ballache plus the time factor will never trump the "turn into a Filling Station & fill up & be on your way in under 5-minutes" ICE user norm.

For work, I've very regularly undertaken days where the mileage was 350 miles, with several hours work in that day, with multiple site stops. That's a long day - one that would become interminable in an EV (which couldn't have carried what I needed anyway, or been able to get in one place long enough to recharge, even if these sites had charge points).

I've done 620 miles in under 13-hours once (from the Swiss Border to Bridgend). Now while this example is extreme, & it's not something I'd recommend/want to do again..... the key point here is that I had I could do so - I had the option open to me when it suddenly became necessary to be a long way away! No panic or headaches about how - I just started the engine, & hit the road!

The reality - is that the EV is far, far more limited, lacks the ease of use and sheer versatility and variety of roles, that a far cheaper ICE can fulfill. Its best role as a city commuter, is one role that I don't really need.

That's not being "anti EV" - it's just being practical & weighing-up the pro's & con's

 

[Agrismith]

Quite often not when you've got a trailer on the back. The most common pickup around here seems to be an Isuzu Dmax and that payload drops to at least half if you have a trailer on the back.

Its all personal preferences at the end of the day and I've not found pickups, particularly double cab to be particularly useful plus they tend to have atrocious steering locks.

It is a valid point about a LR offroad and in my instance I probably use the LRs offroad more in my garden than most do ever. Although I very strongly disagree with your point about it being the 90s having the advantage, having been driving Land Rovers offroad ever since I could drive over a lot of countries and different terrains I can honestly hand on heart say there's never been a "real-world" (excluding comps here) situation where a 90 has done better than a 110. Until I switched out to stupidly wide tyres (they were a good deal) my 110 would out turn 95% of the 90s you met, now it matches them (yes you could improve a 90 in a similar way). However there have been countless situations where the extra wheelbase of the 110 provides far greater stability and keeps traction for longer. Just real world experience I've found the situations where a 90 would do better to be rather contrived and you don't tend to come across them very often.

All the modern pickups can be upgraded to 7t train weight by Cheshire contractors, which is no different from your Sandringham being modified to do the job better.
And even before you modify them they are far better tow vehicles than defenders.
Yesterday I was in a td5 110 which has just been completely rebuilt towing a new tri axle ifor with a 2.5t machine on. It towed it but my 2003 ranger which was only supposed to tow 2.7t use to do a better job. I would love a defender but not as a work vehicle as they simply can't compete with pickups for towing.

And I've had the opposite experience. A 110 doesn't have a great advantage over a pickup. Slight more articulation and shorter rear overhang yes but not massive advantage in most work situations. My cousin's farm on the south downs and a 90 is the only vehicle that will cope with the terrain 110s and pickups belly out to often or ground out on the front and back bumpers due to length. When their current fleet of defenders die it will have to be farm buggys they use.
And in my experience it's all fairly irrelevant beyond that as In a work environment if a modern pickup on mud tyres won't go their either you shouldn't be going their or a better plan needs to be decided as you are likely to not be working efficiently or you will make a mess to be repaired. Ive watched plenty of local guys decide they need a modified vehicle either land rover or jap to do the work so they can get to exactly where they are working with there kit. And they soon change their mind after they make a mess of a client's property and spend more on reinstatement than they made on the job.

 

[pressbrake1]

There’s something like a 75% reduction in fatalities over the last 30 years despite there being more cars on the road (can’t recall the exact figures but something like that…).

But yeah, modern cars are rubbish

I think a lot of that is to do with better bodies. Not long ago I drove a mk1 escort and it felt very weak and tinny!
Most cars other than the Germans are fwd so less people loosing control.
Actually it seems like a lot of drivers think abs and traction control coupled to airbags means they’re invincible!

 

[GRW]

All the modern pickups can be upgraded to 7t train weight by Cheshire contractors, which is no different from your Sandringham being modified to do the job better.
And even before you modify them they are far better tow vehicles than defenders.
Yesterday I was in a td5 110 which has just been completely rebuilt towing a new tri axle ifor with a 2.5t machine on. It towed it but my 2003 ranger which was only supposed to tow 2.7t use to do a better job. I would love a defender but not as a work vehicle as they simply can't compete with pickups for towing.

And I've had the opposite experience. A 110 doesn't have a great advantage over a pickup. Slight more articulation and shorter rear overhang yes but not massive advantage in most work situations. My cousin's farm on the south downs and a 90 is the only vehicle that will cope with the terrain 110s and pickups belly out to often or ground out on the front and back bumpers due to length. When their current fleet of defenders die it will have to be farm buggys they use.
And in my experience it's all fairly irrelevant beyond that as In a work environment if a modern pickup on mud tyres won't go their either you shouldn't be going their or a better plan needs to be decided as you are likely to not be working efficiently or you will make a mess to be repaired. Ive watched plenty of local guys decide they need a modified vehicle either land rover or jap to do the work so they can get to exactly where they are working with there kit. And they soon change their mind after they make a mess of a client's property and spend more on reinstatement than they made on the job.

I've started doing some work for a mate who has a timber business (from milling trees into planks/joists etc. to turning the offcuts into Kiln Dried Firewood for delivery to customers).
He has a 2019 Valtra Tractor (cracking machine, but uber-complex & flashes up fault codes & beeps etc.
Most of his stuff is Unimogs (some really old as in over 50yo). Simple, robust as hell, hugely capable off road dragging big weights, and fitted with PTO & hydraulics so they can take big processing machines into difficult off-road situations, & then drive those machines.
It's still difficult to do some tasks much better today or more efficiently with today's "advances" than you can with something designed & used since before I was out of short trousers (& that you can still repair & maintain with regular hand tools).

 

[daleyd]

Some EV adopters on this thread are pretty defensive. OK, it's pretty common to feel the need & want to justify their choice, & what they spent a lot of money on.
But then we also see a sort of sniffy dismissal of those who aren't enamoured by EV's as though we are some sort of luddite or neanderthal (or just plain stupid).

I'd like to point out, that being put off an EV by the negatives (factor in the buy cost, its useful life, reliability, repair costs, range, the hassle & very slow speed of recharging etc etc), and add in the fact that there are vehicles available (& have been for the last 3-decades at least) that don't have these drawbacks..... doesn't make a person a conspiracy theorist, anti-technology or dumb.

E.g. @premmington Works on cars including hybrids & EV's, gets to see & understands the inner workings at a far deeper level than quite probably any other poster - and his assessment, his (very) informed decision... is that they aren't a suitable replacement for his ICE car.

@sako243 gets told he can pay to import a hugely expensive EV to tow loads with, when he can use an ICE with no range or fuelling issues for a tiny fraction of the cost and risks.

It might just be that instead of being backward, outdated & thick, we might just be the smart ones huh?

Nobody’s being overly defensive, people are simply pointing out the real life reality of ev driving, as opposed to some of the myths that seem to fly around. And no one is telling anyone they “have” to import anything, from what I can see it was a tongue in cheek remark, I’m really not sure why the almost permanent outrage that some else made a different choice to you?

There’s no doubt there’s drawbacks as well, and a little planning is currently required for a longer journey. There’s no one that’s going to deny that. As said, they won’t suit everyone but thats not to say they don’t suit anyone. I’ve been totally honest in my opinion, that I’d have another. @brewdexta has had 3. If it was so inconvenient, unreliable and all round poor choice would I do that? Of course not. And ours is certainly not just a city runaround, this week it’s loaded up with 4 people and a dog plus luggage for a week at the coast at the opposite end of wales.

What I don’t get is the constant hand wringing over the cost, we get the fact that you are not going to buy a new car and how “smart” your choice is compared to people buying new vehicles- you’ve told us at least half a dozen times.

But yeah, those “smug” ev drivers eh!

 

[Agrismith]

Made in Scotland: the all-electric Munro Mk1 Pick-Up

We don’t normally write about automobiles in these parts but this is interesting – the all-electric Munro Mk1 Pick-Up.

www.theconstructionindex.co.uk

 

[Agrismith]

Home | Munro Vehicles

Decarbonise your 4x4 fleet with the fully electric Munro Series-M.

www.munro-ev.com

 

[Bornfree]

If EVs are going to be the future they need to make them lighter. My 3.5t van has a payload of 1570kgs the EV version payload is 760kgs.

 

[dobbslc]

Home | Munro Vehicles

Decarbonise your 4x4 fleet with the fully electric Munro Series-M.

www.munro-ev.com

Starting price £60.
But then again a LR is also daft money.

 

[daleyd]

If EVs are going to be the future they need to make them lighter. My 3.5t van has a payload of 1570kgs the EV version payload is 760kgs.

I wonder for things like goods transport/agriculture whether hydrogen will be used? Or whether the switch to ev (or other alternatives) for those users that can switch would allow industries like this to carry on using fossil fuels?

 

[sako243]

@sako243 gets told he can pay to import a hugely expensive EV to tow loads with, when he can use an ICE with no range or fuelling issues for a tiny fraction of the cost and risks.

It might just be that instead of being backward, outdated & thick, we might just be the smart ones huh?

Ironically an electric vehicle would suit the refueling cycle quite well because I work from home and it's not uncommon I have to go out of my way to refuel the ICE vehicles. Having said that I'd rather spend £100k on more work on the house than importing an EV that doesn't exist yet (station wagon version is expected next year).

As it stands the 110 owes me about £40k total for the last 16 years of ownership, that's from purchase, insurance, toys added to it etc., just excluding fuel. Not bad for 16 years of wear and tear and 180k miles in my ownership. Are there better tow vehicles, yes at individual things but you'll struggle to find one that does everything as well. The only one in my experience that does comes close is a Range Rover. Two vehicles that can take everything I throw at them, give them a valet and they become bridal cars (true story). The valeter was surprisingly okay with a week after he'd spent 6h valeting the Defender and 2 days after I drove a friend to her wedding in it the Defender had fresh gralloched deer carcasses bleeding all over the bonnet bringing it back down from the hill.

 

[GRW]

Nobody’s being overly defensive, people are simply pointing out the real life reality of ev driving, as opposed to some of the myths that seem to fly around. And no one is telling anyone they “have” to import anything, from what I can see it was a tongue in cheek remark, I’m really not sure why the almost permanent outrage that some else made a different choice to you?

There’s no doubt there’s drawbacks as well, and a little planning is currently required for a longer journey. There’s no one that’s going to deny that. As said, they won’t suit everyone but thats not to say they don’t suit anyone. I’ve been totally honest in my opinion, that I’d have another. @brewdexta has had 3. If it was so inconvenient, unreliable and all round poor choice would I do that? Of course not. And ours is certainly not just a city runaround, this week it’s loaded up with 4 people and a dog plus luggage for a week at the coast at the opposite end of wales.

What I don’t get is the constant hand wringing over the cost, we get the fact that you are not going to buy a new car and how “smart” your choice is compared to people buying new vehicles- you’ve told us at least half a dozen times.

But yeah, those “smug” ev drivers eh!

"Outraged"? You've got the wrong guy lol. I'm amused at the "logic" more like.

As for "cost" - the "hand-wringing" as you put it - then if I have a beef (more a despair for the loss of what I see as a failure to see the big picture).... is that as more & more people "drink the Kool-Aid" then YOUR choices adversely affect MY future choices.
By accepting & adopting (very) expensive vehicles with far more limitations and far higher annual operating costs, then you're facilitating the end of sensibly-priced, practical transport for everyone else (whether they like it or not).

What will (in fact is relentlessly) kill off the car as a durable item, that can be serviced and maintained by the owner (should they wish to, or by a more reasonable independent outlet) has been systematically driven into extinction.... by people blithely accepting equipment that effectively puts a user in thrall to its Mfr.

As @premmington predicts, the industry is forcing-out the Independent through locking them out of the tech, & restricting access & the ability to fit parts etc.

None of this direction, is good for the Consumer - and its going to get much worse, while you don't notice, or don't care.

"More money than sense" is an old phrase that springs to mind. A lack of vision (or care?) as to the future choices and yes costs (rather total exclusion for a great many due to unaffordability) is what future generations face - and its the self-absorbed, self-satisfied, unthinking consumer that facilitates that future.

You're not saving the planet in your EV - you're actually helping the momentum of the process to push the vast majority of the population out of their car, and back onto Shank's Pony or the bicycle.

There you go - now THAT'S a Rant for ya!

 

[daleyd]

"Outraged"? You've got the wrong guy lol. I'm amused at the "logic" more like.

As for "cost" - the "hand-wringing" as you put it - then if I have a beef (more a despair for the loss of what I see as a failure to see the big picture).... is that as more & more people "drink the Kool-Aid" then YOUR choices adversely affect MY future choices.
By accepting & adopting (very) expensive vehicles with far more limitations and far higher annual operating costs, then you're facilitating the end of sensibly-priced, practical transport for everyone else (whether they like it or not).

What will (in fact is relentlessly) kill off the car as a durable item, that can be serviced and maintained by the owner (should they wish to, or by a more reasonable independent outlet) has been systematically driven into extinction.... by people blithely accepting equipment that effectively puts a user in thrall to its Mfr.

As @premmington predicts, the industry is forcing-out the Independent through locking them out of the tech, & restricting access & the ability to fit parts etc.

None of this direction, is good for the Consumer - and its going to get much worse, while you don't notice, or don't care.

"More money than sense" is an old phrase that springs to mind. A lack of vision (or care?) as to the future choices and yes costs (rather total exclusion for a great many due to unaffordability) is what future generations face - and its the self-absorbed, self-satisfied, unthinking consumer that facilitates that future.

You're not saving the planet in your EV - you're actually helping the momentum of the process to push the vast majority of the population out of their car, and back onto Shank's Pony or the bicycle.

There you go - now THAT'S a Rant for ya!

If you think I’m (or anybody for that matter) going to choose a car to suit what you want to drive in 30 years time then you may be in for a disappointment

I made my choice based on my current circumstances, nothing more nothing less. I don’t have crystal ball, neither does anyone else so I’m not fixated on the future.

At the end of the day people can only buy what’s laid out in front of them, that’s not dictated by a single consumer I’m afraid.

 

[GRW]

If EVs are going to be the future they need to make them lighter. My 3.5t van has a payload of 1570kgs the EV version payload is 760kgs.

If you think on it, your van only has to carry a small portion of the fuel that is required to produce the Energy needed to move itself & its payload about - because the vast amount of it - is air drawn from around it as it travels through it.
(I don't know the percentage of fuel/air mix/ratio, but let's hazard a guess & say the actual "fuel" in the tank is 5% of the actual volume that goes through the combustion process).

An EV - has to carry 100% of its "fuel" around, all the time, (contained within big, heavy encasements).
It's hard to see (short of going back to the electric locomotive / tram system, where the vehicle "picks up" its electricity (Scalextric?) how an EV can overcome this penalty.

 

[GRW]

If you think I’m (or anybody for that matter) going to choose a car to suit what you want to drive in 30 years time then you may be in for a disappointment

I made my choice based on my current circumstances, nothing more nothing less. I don’t have crystal ball, neither does anyone else so I’m not fixated on the future.

At the end of the day people can only buy what’s laid out in front of them, that’s not dictated by a single consumer I’m afraid.

Got kids @daleyd ?

Parents tend to want a better future for their kids & grandchildren, and should think ahead as to what future they'll be leaving for those that follow.

You don't need a crystal ball to see the direction things are going vis a vis the vehicle/personal transport situation.... in fact you'd have to be blind (or have your head up your ****) not to see it.

 

[addjunkie]

Ithink we should all go back to horse and carts. The waste can be used to fertilise, or for entertainment when the woke stand in it, butthen the green lobby would whinge about methane production!

 

[northwest]

I own an E-mtb

I would like to see that. I have built a few Motor Torpedo Boat models but not yet had a ride in a real one.

people are simply pointing out the real life reality of ev driving, as opposed to some of the myths that seem to fly around

Exactly this.

 

[daleyd]

Got kids @daleyd ?

Parents tend to want a better future for their kids & grandchildren, and should think ahead as to what future they'll be leaving for those that follow.

You don't need a crystal ball to see the direction things are going vis a vis the vehicle/personal transport situation.... in fact you'd have to be blind (or have your head up your ****) not to see it.

I’ll ignore this as it’s none of your business and getting into the personal realms.

Enjoy the rest of your day Keep taking the blood pressure meds.