Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[Agrismith]

I have thought about this...

But have you seen the size and weight of an EV battery in real life? Sadly I have...

Hardly gonna be "splash and dash" is it?

I really like that saying "splash and dash"...

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I even been giving some thoughts to swaping out hydrogen 300bar bottles in cars - but this is not gonna be like pumping in LPG at low pressure.

Difficult problems to resolve...

It would have to be done an attendant with a mechanical handling device. Or in some way an automated mechanical handling device, but it is definitely not infeasible. And would be far closer to petrol pump times than charging times. It would also solve a large problem that isn't mentioned with charging and that's real estate. It's fine if charging occurs at a parking destination as the car has to be parked anyway. But it's an incredible waste of real estate to have a whole car parked in a services to charge when the battery is the only thing actually needed to charge.
It just seems the really logical route to explore.

 

[premmington]

It would have to be done an attendant with a mechanical handling device. Or in some way an automated mechanical handling device, but it is definitely not infeasible. And would be far closer to petrol pump times than charging times. It would also solve a large problem that isn't mentioned with charging and that's real estate. It's fine if charging occurs at a parking destination as the car has to be parked anyway. But it's an incredible waste of real estate to have a whole car parked in a services to charge when the battery is the only thing actually needed to charge.
It just seems the really logical route to explore.

I agree with you. Prime real estate does have a cost.

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When cars came - they sold petrol at chemist shops - then on roadside in gallon cans - then as more cars came - the petrol station was born.

Electric cars are here and the infrastructure will follow.

The problem has to come first the solution comes second.

 

[GRW]

If they where to look at range extenders surely interchangeable battery packs would be the best option. Have space for multiple batteries but can run on a single one. Reducing weight for normal travel. But the range is there and can swap out at a battery station in minutes to save waiting for charge. I am surprised the EU or similar haven't already drawn up a standardized battery design in case we go this route in the future,or maybe they have and it's not been publisized

Factories running leccy forklifts have been doing similar for decades. A station to lift out the fork truck pack, & drop in a charged replacement, allowing the truck to keep on working while the removed pack was tested, any duff cells replaced, being recharged & made ready to drop into the next fork truck.

I suppose - if our dozy Govt had insisted on all EV cars had to use modular packs (bigger, larger range cars could simply use 2 packs)... then the UK could have battery stations ike the rest of us use petrol stations.
Pull in, they lift out your depleted pack, drop in a charged one, you swipe your bank card.... & continue onwards.

But that sort of thinking has no place in Transport Planning or Govt.

 

[willie.macleod]

If they where to look at range extenders surely interchangeable battery packs would be the best option. Have space for multiple batteries but can run on a single one. Reducing weight for normal travel. But the range is there and can swap out at a battery station in minutes to save waiting for charge. I am surprised the EU or similar haven't already drawn up a standardized battery design in case we go this route in the future,or maybe they have and it's not been publisized

Tesla nailed the battery swapping down to 90 seconds at their trial battery swap station. However, the cost to run it was horrendous and all the costs have to be passed back to the consumer who will at the end of the day prefer to wait for a few minutes and save a fortune. They scrapped the idea. Also scaling up if you end up in a queue for the battery swap why not just plug in and charge it instead for lower cost? Way easier to scale up chargers than battery swap machinery.

Better Place in Israel was another example - they built lots of infrastructure for battery swapping and nailed the tech side but ultimately failed, and that's in a small country desperate to reduce oil imports. Not enough car manufacturer or consumer buy in.

The tech side of charging is there already - we've agreed on CCS for rapid charging and type 2 connectors for slower charging. Just need to up the number of chargers, ideally in hubs.

 

[GRW]

Tesla nailed the battery swapping down to 90 seconds at their trial battery swap station. However, the cost to run it was horrendous and all the costs have to be passed back to the consumer who will at the end of the day prefer to wait for a few minutes and save a fortune. They scrapped the idea. Also scaling up if you end up in a queue for the battery swap why not just plug in and charge it instead for lower cost? Way easier to scale up chargers than battery swap machinery.

Better Place in Israel was another example - they built lots of infrastructure for battery swapping and nailed the tech side but ultimately failed, and that's in a small country desperate to reduce oil imports. Not enough car manufacturer or consumer buy in.

The tech side of charging is there already - we've agreed on CCS for rapid charging and type 2 connectors for slower charging. Just need to up the number of chargers, ideally in hubs.

Or get Doc Emmett Brown onto the case.
A DeLorean with a "Mr Fusion" unit - now THAT'S an EV

 

[Ubique]

Volvo did a study of this - I think it was Volvo, could've been PSA, anyway... as far as the physical changeout, all vehicles would need the same battery (or one of a range of physical dimensions & capacities) and the same BMS that could be coded to the vehicle in less than it currently takes (the cells need to be stressed and the recovery time measured), then there is the issue of the received battery having a sufficient capacity/lifespan as the one issued - or how would 'wear & tear' be charged at point of sale? IIRC, the physical issues could be addressed with the usual consortium approach giving a few variants but the monetary charging and fast battery assessment (at the moment it can take up to three days to properly quantify the ageing of a vehicle traction battery) at the point of exchange was considered to be the main sticking point.

 

[premmington]

Brillant - now the downsides to the "pack plan".

1. Who is paying for the stock of said batteries - they ain't cheap kids. There are 32million cars in the UK today - so you might need 64 million batteries - think about it... Really think about what you are suggesting.
2. Are you paying deposits on them? Or do you want the government to do it - if so your EV road fund licence is gonna be £5/10k a year mate.
3. Are you gonna swap yours for mine (cas mine may have bad cells).
4. Labour to move and charge/store/check these is gonna add cost. When you "splash and dash" you are self serving punter.
5. There is only enough unminded lithium on the planet to make 75% of the batteries we need now to replace ICE and you lot are suggesting leaving piles of spares everywhere on service station forecourts.

I hate to sound negative - I not a ludite (I don't think) - but swapping packs has limitations/problems it does.

It also kills my bottled hydrogen gas theory as well... Sadly....

 

[premmington]

Volvo did a study of this - I think it was Volvo, could've been PSA, anyway... as far as the physical changeout, all vehicles would need the same battery (or one of a range of physical dimensions & capacities) and the same BMS that could be coded to the vehicle in less than it currently takes (the cells need to be stressed and the recovery time measured), then there is the issue of the received battery having a sufficient capacity/lifespan as the one issued - or how would 'wear & tear' be charged at point of sale? IIRC, the physical issues could be addressed with the usual consortium approach giving a few variants but the monetary charging and fast battery assessment (at the moment it can take up to three days to properly quantify the ageing of a vehicle traction battery) at the point of exchange was considered to be the main sticking point.

The OLDGIT here added point 6 to my answer I never concidered - BMS - he made a good point!

Oh... I can call him an "oldgit" - he used to it - you lot won't understand - but he does.

 

[mtt.tr]

just the handling, batteries are bloody heavy!

 

[premmington]

Sadly swapping out battery paks of fuel station forecourts or 300bar pressure bottles of burning hydrogen in ICE engines is not gonna work.

Bottle swapping has more mileage than lithium paks in my mind - but still not workable.

 

[premmington]

The OLDGIT here added point 6 to my answer I never concidered - he made a good point!

Oh... I can call him an "oldgit" - he used to it - you lot won't understand - but he does.

That was funny - I am on form tonight.

 

[Ubique]

There's MHE for fitting them at build, we have frames & jigs for replacing them at work - the physical side isn't the issue, although you do need to be careful with coolant drain & fill issues, some manufacturers are better than others when it comes to coolant circuit design.

 

[Agrismith]

Tesla nailed the battery swapping down to 90 seconds at their trial battery swap station. However, the cost to run it was horrendous and all the costs have to be passed back to the consumer who will at the end of the day prefer to wait for a few minutes and save a fortune. They scrapped the idea. Also scaling up if you end up in a queue for the battery swap why not just plug in and charge it instead for lower cost? Way easier to scale up chargers than battery swap machinery.

Better Place in Israel was another example - they built lots of infrastructure for battery swapping and nailed the tech side but ultimately failed, and that's in a small country desperate to reduce oil imports. Not enough car manufacturer or consumer buy in.

The tech side of charging is there already - we've agreed on CCS for rapid charging and type 2 connectors for slower charging. Just need to up the number of chargers, ideally in hubs.

But the idea is there would be no que. That's the whole point so there wouldn't be a chance to charge in the que.
I can understand that the Tesla hub is expensive but firstly their is only 1 so costs would be higher and secondly Tesla is a business and like many other businesses will choose the route that financially benefits them the greatest rather than for the greater good. The Israel option demonstrates the need for a governing body to standardise everything, infact I think they both do. If the batteries and changeover stations where standardized between all manufacturers, and if as the gouvenment say we are all going to have an ev then the cost is spread over more people and the item cost comes down. It would also allow more consistent battery charging and would hopefully extend the batteries life with is of environmental importance. This kind of thing would be most important on services as our current answer seems to be to help the environment by paving over it so all the cars can park and charge.
It's another example of the hypocrisy of the government mandates.

A Renault twizzy battery pack is around 100kg from Google. Devided into 4 packs then the average person could swap them by hand pretty easily with help onsite for those who can't.
If we truly believe we are going to save the planet or infact believe that the planet needs saving, and simultaneously begrudge the reduction of personal transport, then the next option is to reduce the size of personal transport, and the likes of the Renault twizzy, electric motorbikes and e scooters are surely the way forward

 

[premmington]

But the idea is there would be no que. That's the whole point so there wouldn't be a chance to charge in the que.
I can understand that the Tesla hub is expensive but firstly their is only 1 so costs would be higher and secondly Tesla is a business and like many other businesses will choose the route that financially benefits them the greatest rather than for the greater good. The Israel option demonstrates the need for a governing body to standardise everything, infact I think they both do. If the batteries and changeover stations where standardized between all manufacturers, and if as the gouvenment say we are all going to have an ev then the cost is spread over more people and the item cost comes down. It would also allow more consistent battery charging and would hopefully extend the batteries life with is of environmental importance. This kind of thing would be most important on services as our current answer seems to be to help the environment by paving over it so all the cars can park and charge.
It's another example of the hypocrisy of the government mandates.

A Renault twizzy battery pack is around 100kg from Google. Devided into 4 packs then the average person could swap them by hand pretty easily with help onsite for those who can't.
If we truly believe we are going to save the planet or infact believe that the planet needs saving, and simultaneously begrudge the reduction of personal transport, then the next option is to reduce the size of personal transport, and the likes of the Renault twizzy, electric motorbikes and e scooters are surely the way forward

Where are you gonna get all this lithium from exactly? For spare sets of batteries for everybody.

There is less lithium than there is oil....

Frustrated man - bangs his head on something solid.

You gonna make lithium in shorter supply - push the price up - batteries kg for kg - will cost more than gold.

EV cars are already too dear - you gonna make them cost even more.

 

[Agrismith]

Brillant - now the downsides to the "pack plan".

1. Who is paying for the stock of said batteries - they ain't cheap kids. There are 32million cars in the UK today - so you might need 64 million batteries - think about it... Really think about what you are suggesting.
2. Are you paying deposits on them? Or do you want the government to do it - if so your EV road fund licence is gonna be £5/10k a year mate.
3. Are you gonna swap yours for mine (cas mine may have bad cells).
4. Labour to move and charge/store/check these is gonna add cost. When you "splash and dash" you are self serving punter.
5. There is only enough unminded lithium on the planet to make 75% of the batteries we need now to replace ICE and you lot are suggesting leaving piles of spares everywhere on service station forecourts.

I hate to sound negative - I not a ludite (I don't think) - but swapping packs has limitations/problems it does.

It also kills my bottled hydrogen gas theory as well... Sadly....

Having the ability to swap batteries can reduce battery size requirements, especially if there is the option to use multiples for extended journeys.

And you wouldn't own them and neither would the gouvenment. The batteries would simply be hired, most likely from BP shell and Texaco. Most these cars are PCP so essentially just a monthly payment or hire charge. So it would make little difference as your battery lease charge is just part of your monthly payments.

 

[atomant48]

Will they be able to carry any people or freight?


More seriously, commercial planes need to carry 50% more spare fuel than the journey requires (so that on the event of bad weather, diversions, delays etc - they don't fall out of the sky).
If a battery-powered airliner has to carry an extra 50% (usable) battery storage, that's an awful lot of weight.

Out by a full order of magnitude there.

There’s some really interesting development going on in aerospace - not all electric based - and yes it is aimed at passenger markets. I’m not sure on timescales but it all seems to be in the current development cycles rather than future technology.

 

[premmington]

Having the ability to swap batteries can reduce battery size requirements, especially if there is the option to use multiples for extended journeys.

And you wouldn't own them and neither would the gouvenment. The batteries would simply be hired, most likely from BP shell and Texaco. Most these cars are PCP so essentially just a monthly payment or hire charge. So it would make little difference as your battery lease charge is just part of your monthly payments.

I am sorry you not grasping it mate.

Get a torch - take the batteries out of it - then put a spare set next to them - then count the batteries.

 

[GRW]

My thinking was.... well it seems that people already don't get to BUY the battery even if they buy the EV.... so if battery packs were retained by the Mfr or a Distributor - is that really all that different a concept to what we fo already with other stuff?

Propane Gas. We exchange an empty (deposit paid) vessel for a full one. Ditto welding gas or oxy-acetylene.
Really the battery is just the vessel that stores the energy.... and just as BOC the out of circulation worn/damaged bottles & replace them - a similar system would apply for battery packs?

As for "no 2 packs are identical in terms of delivery & storage over time... well all the cars accurately meter energy consumption already yes? So if you were paying by the kwh, then if you got less from an older pack... you'd pay for what you got based on the car metering.

(The shortage of batteries is one thing I don't have the answer for for sure - but then again... if there aren't the planetary resources to fulfill the electric future.... then surely its not a viable model, right? So why are we committing to Lithium Cell powered EV's again?)

 

[not done it yet]

So.... a BMW with "Rex".... is an EV with a motorbike engine in the boot to recharge the batteries en route?

So, their advanced technology solution, is to create a small car version of the diesel-electric locomotive from the 1960's?

Wrong! YET AGAIN!

You really don’t understand the principles of electric cars, do you?

You don’t even know the meaning of the REX part. It EXTENDS the range, if necessitated. It allows the ’range anxiety‘ mob to be able to avoid being stranded with no electrical power. It allows every other user to manage a slightly larger range in order to get home to charge (the thinking drivers). Obviously not quite like a hybrid - well, perhaps in reverse, if you were to understand that.

How much power do you think it really needs to toddle along (if necessary) to the next charge point? My peugeot 106 only has 60BHP and I don’t use all of that ‘available power‘ most of the time.

 

[Agrismith]

Where are you gonna get all this lithium from exactly? For spare sets of batteries for everybody.

There is less lithium than there is oil....

Frustrated man - bangs his head on something solid.

You gonna make lithium in shorter supply - push the price up - batteries kg for kg - will cost more than gold.

EV cars are already too dear - you gonna make them cost even more.

There is absolutely nothing to say that lithium is going to be the battery of choice in years to come. Technology is advancing at such a pace that all options need to be left open as Currently I can see us all having this discussion again in a few years time but lithium Vs new battery technology.
And as said the battery sizes can be reduced in fact the whole car size can be reduced.

Or maybe we should scrap private car ownership altogether. We all just have an enterprise app and just walk to the nearest car and get in it drive to where we want to be and leave it for the next person.