Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[willie.macleod]

Note the scale, pollution when driving in measured in cubic metres of pollution, everything else (mining the raw materials, shipping them around the world to be processed, and everything else) is measured in millions of cubic meters of pollution.
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There was no way that the above is even close to being correct. I don't know where you got it from, but if you read the source quoted you will find the graphic is incorrect, the report for item 4 "driving the car" is actually 1016 MILLION cubic metres of polluted air per car. That rather changes the scenario. I have no doubt that the "typo" was not an error, someone wanting to make whatever point they were trying to make and distorting the figures to suit and as usual these things will circulate around and become gospel when it is patently obvious that the exhaust volume is going to be a huge figure! Also, our mining, transport, manufacturing and end of life processes have significantly improved so those figures will be lower now than when the report was written.

 

[daleyd]

But also take into account that that there are emissions produced to provide the power to for the EV to use.

Also a basic Tesla weighs 2 tonne. That's like driving around in an unladen Transit Custom. Extra weight to damage the already damaged roads.

A Tesla Grand X weighs 2 and a half tonne?!! Thats's equivalent to a tradesman in his Transit Custom with some tools.

Getting really critical I bet the Tesla shreds more tyre and brake pad partials in use due to it's weight.

That’s been done to death - brake pads get comparatively little use in an ev due to regen braking. See my post above, it does indeed take into account emissions depending on the electricity mix on the grid - in heavily fossil fuel dependant areas the difference is smaller, whereas in areas where green energy is used a lot the difference is greater. As an extreme example Norway the in use emissions are very low as most of their electricity is from hydro.

 

[rhubarb7]

That’s been done to death - brake pads get comparatively little use in an ev due to regen braking. See my post above, it does indeed take into account emissions depending on the electricity mix on the grid - in heavily fossil fuel dependant areas the difference is smaller, whereas in areas where green energy is used a lot the difference is greater. As an extreme example Norway the in use emissions are very low as most of their electricity is from hydro.

The bulk of the EV's in my area are driven hard in short bursts, the regen braking wouldn't come into it around the back streets here.

I don't think it's fair, a 2.5 tonne Tesla gets free road tax, a Vauxhall Vivaro pays 350 a year.

The EV is tearing around en-route to the school/office, the Van owner is out working.

Another think that bugs me, is people trailing leads across the pavements to charge them. Illegal too.

 

[GRW]

And you seem to be going to the ends of the earth to justify why EVs are never going to be the answer...

Not strictly true. I think in very specific circumstances and individuals - they can suit (I know a 93yo chap with a Leaf - & for his specific case - it suits. For the majority & right now, no).

In the future? IF they made them reliable, sustainable, repairable (& not just by a Main Dealer), and at a reasonable, affordable price, with a properly working, unified network of charging points - so the vehicle stands up on the vital metrics & on performance merit - then I have nothing whatsoever against the technology (its not like its actually new tech apart from the improved performance Lithium Batteries over previous materials).

Performance Merit. Affordability. Sustainability. In other words, if the EV actually delivers on its claims & becomes real-world viable - fair enough.
Till then, a few people basically spouting regurgitated soundbytes and questionable stats and acting as unpaid salesmen pitching the things because they bought one based on the same flawed narrative - then I'm just providing an alternative take.

I actually see that the transport future for the masses - isn't the EV....but then it's not a car at all. Its clear (though a definite vote-killer so will never be said directly) that the car and quite possibly distance travel (that we take for granted and as a "right") will not "be banned" but will be made inexorably too expensive for the masses to buy or lease.
@premmington it was I think who used the phrase "transport poverty" .... and the time of the £40k - £120k EV that the owner has no true control over where/how/what it does or is maintained is already upon us. Thankfully (for now) there are cheap ICE alternatives (though good ones of those are becoming rarer) - but the direction to-date says that car ownership in the long-term - will be something only the wealthy elite will be doing.

 

[daleyd]

The bulk of the EV's in my area are driven hard in short bursts, the regen braking wouldn't come into it around the back streets here.

I don't think it's fair, a 2.5 tonne Tesla gets free road tax, a Vauxhall Vivaro pays 350 a year.

The EV is tearing around en-route to the school/office, the Van owner is out working.

Another think that bugs me, is people trailing leads across the pavements to charge them. Illegal too.

Tesla model 3 base model is 1.6 tonne vs a bmw 3 series lowest weight of 1.5 tonne - so it’s not quite as bad as it’s made out to be. They are heavier, yes, but some of the figures are exaggerated. The bigger teslas probably compare well enough with a comparable model Range Rover which would be their competitor - but I’m unlikely to ever own either so I haven’t looked!

Regen braking as far as I know works pretty much everywhere, in fact round town is one of the plus points for an ev. It doesn’t work for the last few mph when you are slowing down but otherwise in “normal” driving the mechanical brakes get very little use.

 

[GRW]

You’ll have to argue with the IMF if you disagree with their figures, I’m only passing the info on - I’d assume if subsidies are a bad thing then it should be applied across the board.

Do you want one of my Rennie?

I don't think the IMF has anything to do with the current vehicle choices and their relative merits to the man on the street.
I could counter with the 70% tax duty (& then VAT on top) applied to fossil fuels at point of sale - but its simply not relevant.
You're making a point.... just not one with any actual relevance to what I said re performance merit.
You chose to spend a premium amount over a similar size/type ICE - to buy an EV, which has the much-discussed constraints & limitations over the ICE. Basically you chose to pay more - for a product that's objectively inferior - but that is entirely your prerogative, & you have your reasons (I just cannot see where/how you worked out it made sense..... but I'm pretty sure the IMF had nothing to do with it ).

 

[rhubarb7]

Tesla model 3 base model is 1.6 tonne vs a bmw 3 series lowest weight of 1.5 tonne - so it’s not quite as bad as it’s made out to be. They are heavier, yes, but some of the figures are exaggerated. The bigger teslas probably compare well enough with a comparable model Range Rover which would be their competitor - but I’m unlikely to ever own either so I haven’t looked!

Regen braking as far as I know works pretty much everywhere, in fact round town is one of the plus points for an ev. It doesn’t work for the last few mph when you are slowing down but otherwise in “normal” driving the mechanical brakes get very little use.

Tesla 3 weighs 1779kg from Teslas webpage

 

[daleyd]

I don't think the IMF has anything to do with the current vehicle choices and their relative merits to the man on the street.
I could counter with the 70% tax duty (& then VAT on top) applied to fossil fuels at point of sale - but its simply not relevant.
You're making a point.... just not one with any actual relevance to what I said re performance merit.
You chose to spend a premium amount over a similar size/type ICE - to buy an EV, which has the much-discussed constraints & limitations over the ICE. Basically you chose to pay more - for a product that's objectively inferior - but that is entirely your prerogative, & you have your reasons (I just cannot see where/how you worked out it made sense..... but I'm pretty sure the IMF had nothing to do with it ).

And yet my own experience of owning it is that…
1. it was pretty comparable on price to other ice vehicles we were looking at,
2. has been utterly reliable and convenient (haven’t been to a garage to fill up in 18 months),
3. is fantastically quiet and relaxing to drive,
4. It’s cost me about £1200 less than an equivalent ice vehicle to run over 12 months. And there’s very little servicing in the coming years compared to an ice.
5. 8 year warranty vs 3 for an ice.

You might not think those are compelling reasons, but I wouldn’t make a different choice should I do it again.

 

[daleyd]

Tesla 3 weighs 1779kg from Teslas webpage

Standard range is 1617.

 

[rhubarb7]

I just did an insurance quote on a 4 year old Tesla Model 3, (year 2019) for sale for 18grand. I have max no claims and I'm 51 years old. Cheapest quote was 800 quid with a 900 quid excess ffs lol

My current Mitsubishi Insurance is 158quid

 

[daleyd]

I just did an insurance quote on a 4 year old Tesla Model 3, (year 2019) for sale for 18grand. I have max no claims and I'm 51 years old. Cheapest quote was 800 quid with a 900 quid excess ffs lol

My current Mitsubishi Insurance is 158quid

My missus previous car was a Tiguan, when we changed I think the insurance quote was very similar for the new one. I don’t have it to hand but at most a couple of hundred quid - we are both late 40’s so not young drivers.

It’s not massively expensive, but then it’s quite a slow/comfy family oriented suv type rather than a model 3 which I guess even the standard model is quite “sporty”?

 

[premmington]

It’s not confusing at all. Running an old car makes sense because all the emissions in manufacturing have already been done. Might as well run it until it expires….

But, and here’s the thing - eventually there will be new cars sold. If they weren’t then at some point we’d all be back in horse and carts because there’s now no more secondhand cars…

So if you “replace” the ice car the new car buyer was getting anyway with an ev the lifetime emissions will be lower. No one’s suggesting that anyone replace their 20 year old motor with a new ev - what happens is that the natural buying habits of new car buyers, be they private or fleet, change gradually.

I agree "the reason they sell new cars is old ones wear out"

 

[addjunkie]

And yet my own experience of owning it is that…
1. it was pretty comparable on price to other ice vehicles we were looking at,
2. has been utterly reliable and convenient (haven’t been to a garage to fill up in 18 months),
3. is fantastically quiet and relaxing to drive,
4. It’s cost me about £1200 less than an equivalent ice vehicle to run over 12 months. And there’s very little servicing in the coming years compared to an ice.
5. 8 year warranty vs 3 for an ice.

You might not think those are compelling reasons, but I wouldn’t make a different choice should I do it again.

Points 4 and 5 would get my vote…….

Yesterday todays holiday cottage guest rang me to ask about charging points in our area. Bit late I thought, you've already booked…Range anxiety before she starts her holidays. They arrived about 3 hours after their Tesco delivery, good job we were around. Traffic and two charging points not working, so had to wait at another. Were behind the times round here!

Funny feeling they are going to be vegan + high maintenance from their shopping, and comments about having to drive past sheep in our drive! Oh and the rough unmade road!

 

[Ubique]

Tesla model 3 base model is 1.6 tonne vs a bmw 3 series lowest weight of 1.5 tonne - so it’s not quite as bad as it’s made out to be. They are heavier, yes, but some of the figures are exaggerated. The bigger teslas probably compare well enough with a comparable model Range Rover which would be their competitor - but I’m unlikely to ever own either so I haven’t looked!

Regen braking as far as I know works pretty much everywhere, in fact round town is one of the plus points for an ev. It doesn’t work for the last few mph when you are slowing down but otherwise in “normal” driving the mechanical brakes get very little use.

Firstly, Tesla build quality is cr@p - it's American build 'quality', acknowledged by many Mustang and US-built Merc. sufferers as 'sub-optimal' at best, TBH it doesn't help when the heavily unionised plants just leave stuff out because, well, just because... - and they do not compare well against Range Rover (OK, maybe a P38) - but you're comparing badly bruised apples with well cultivated pears... The first example that comes to mind is the 'vegan leather' that stains and bubbles in contact with 'human leather' but hey, it's Tesla doing it's bit to be inclusive.... Doubtless there will be examples of JLR 'issues' but the fact remains, the cabin design quality and attention to NVH is one of JLR's positives.

Regen braking does indeed save the brake pads, not so much the brake discs which suffer pitting due to lack of use, however, tyre wear is increased as they are effectively the brakes down to the final single figure mph's.
One of the other un-mentioned issues (but tyre manufacturers are well aware) is the increased mass of BEV's compared to ICE similarly sized vehicles, certainly in GB, pot-holes are the bane of many motorist, it's only going to get worse.
From https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/b2c/tyre-knowledge/electric-vehicle-tyres.html

• Tyres for electric vehicles carry a heavier load and have to withstand high instant torque, leading to higher tyre wear, so we need tyres with stronger constructions and more robust rubber compounds.
• Greater mass and increased inertia means longer braking distance, so we place a special emphasis on optimal grip.
• With high instant torque, increased weight, the demand for a long range and lower emissions comes an even greater need for minimal rolling resistance, so tyres for electric cars offer a smoother, more energy-efficient and low-impact ride.

Personally, I think more thinking and testing of ICE fuel replacements would be more acceptable in parallel with BEV 'proper R&D' and charging infrastructure installation with more common sense deployment rather than the current knee-jerk installations. ICE vehicles are well proven with reliable powertrains and drivetrains, why throw that away? Manufacturers proved they were reactive enough to adapt to the various EU emissions standards (not withstanding the various software workarounds....), rather than mandating 'BEV or die', let them come up with low emission alternatives, such as Hydrogen, synthetic fuel, etc. etc. My experience of other peoples BEV's is they are fragile - but they do earn me a healthy wage, alternative fuels do have their own issues, but could dovetail into the current infrastructure and automotive design/engineering progression reasonably seamlessly - a bit like LPG but less Heath-Robinson (although Vaxuhall made a reasonable fist of factory fit systems).

BTW, Heath-Robinson was a WW1 pilot who developed a method of causing Zeppelins to burst into flames by trial & error with 4 mags of alternate HE & tracer rounds...

ETA - not specifically BEV but still relevant

Chemical from tyres linked to mass salmon deaths in US found in Australia for first time

Scientists find 6PPD-quinone in Queensland creek and call for urgent research to see if local aquatic life was harmed

www.theguardian.com

Admittedly it's from the Graundiad so you may well go over your sodium intake reading it....

 

[brewdexta]

I just did an insurance quote on a 4 year old Tesla Model 3, (year 2019) for sale for 18grand. I have max no claims and I'm 51 years old. Cheapest quote was 800 quid with a 900 quid excess ffs lol

My current Mitsubishi Insurance is 158quid

I haven't got the figures in front of me ( i have a beer instead), but our Leaf is much cheaper to insure than our Ranger, by about 2:1 from memory. We've got a whole farm policy but our insurance broker, who'd also a drinking buddy, mentioned how expensive the ranger was to insure.

 

[dobbslc]

No one’s suggesting that anyone replace their 20 year old motor with a new ev - what happens is that the natural buying habits of new car buyers, be they private or fleet, change gradually.

Unless you live near a massively expanding ULEZ!

 

[daleyd]

BTW, Heath-Robinson was a WW1 pilot who developed a method of causing Zeppelins to burst into flames by trial & error with 4 mags of alternate HE & tracer rounds...

William Heath Robinson who was responsible for the overly complex drawings of unlikely machinery was never a pilot.

There was a chap called Leefe Robinson who was responsible for shooting down the first airship with incendiary bullets.

But not the same person at all.

 

[premmington]

Firstly, Tesla build quality is cr@p - it's American build 'quality', acknowledged by many Mustang and US-built Merc. sufferers as 'sub-optimal' at best, TBH it doesn't help when the heavily unionised plants just leave stuff out because, well, just because... - and they do not compare well against Range Rover (OK, maybe a P38) - but you're comparing badly bruised apples with well cultivated pears... The first example that comes to mind is the 'vegan leather' that stains and bubbles in contact with 'human leather' but hey, it's Tesla doing it's bit to be inclusive.... Doubtless there will be examples of JLR 'issues' but the fact remains, the cabin design quality and attention to NVH is one of JLR's positives.

Regen braking does indeed save the brake pads, not so much the brake discs which suffer pitting due to lack of use, however, tyre wear is increased as they are effectively the brakes down to the final single figure mph's.
One of the other un-mentioned issues (but tyre manufacturers are well aware) is the increased mass of BEV's compared to ICE similarly sized vehicles, certainly in GB, pot-holes are the bane of many motorist, it's only going to get worse.
From https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/b2c/tyre-knowledge/electric-vehicle-tyres.html

• Tyres for electric vehicles carry a heavier load and have to withstand high instant torque, leading to higher tyre wear, so we need tyres with stronger constructions and more robust rubber compounds.
• Greater mass and increased inertia means longer braking distance, so we place a special emphasis on optimal grip.
• With high instant torque, increased weight, the demand for a long range and lower emissions comes an even greater need for minimal rolling resistance, so tyres for electric cars offer a smoother, more energy-efficient and low-impact ride.

Personally, I think more thinking and testing of ICE fuel replacements would be more acceptable in parallel with BEV 'proper R&D' and charging infrastructure installation with more common sense deployment rather than the current knee-jerk installations. ICE vehicles are well proven with reliable powertrains and drivetrains, why throw that away? Manufacturers proved they were reactive enough to adapt to the various EU emissions standards (not withstanding the various software workarounds....), rather than mandating 'BEV or die', let them come up with low emission alternatives, such as Hydrogen, synthetic fuel, etc. etc. My experience of other peoples BEV's is they are fragile - but they do earn me a healthy wage, alternative fuels do have their own issues, but could dovetail into the current infrastructure and automotive design/engineering progression reasonably seamlessly - a bit like LPG but less Heath-Robinson (although Vaxuhall made a reasonable fist of factory fit systems).

BTW, Heath-Robinson was a WW1 pilot who developed a method of causing Zeppelins to burst into flames by trial & error with 4 mags of alternate HE & tracer rounds...

ETA - not specifically BEV but still relevant

Chemical from tyres linked to mass salmon deaths in US found in Australia for first time

Scientists find 6PPD-quinone in Queensland creek and call for urgent research to see if local aquatic life was harmed

www.theguardian.com

Admittedly it's from the Graundiad so you may well go over your sodium intake reading it....

It is odd really - me and @Ubique - have actually embraced the BEV/PHEV - we trained up to fix them - we tooled up to do the job (you wanna see the collection of kit I now own - red insulated VDE sockets and the like). I even got a "grim reaper rescue scythe" on my workshop wall.

It's not like we are "luddites"....

I paid a lot of my own personal money to get trained up/gear up and insured to repair - this type of vehicle. I did...

I spent 40years in the motor repair trade - I know what a practical usable vehicle is - I do...

I have worked for myself for 38yrs - if I could not do the maths - I would have starved to death by now.

 

[premmington]

Unless you live near a massively expanding ULEZ!

Valid point...

 

[brewdexta]

We live in the hills and use regenerative braking every day, our 3 Leafs haven't had any issues with brakes.

Maybe, when on regenerative braking and the friction brakes haven't been used for a while, maybe the system substitutes friction braking for a couple of times. If not, they should do and maybe I should have patented the idea