Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[GRW]

See my post above re wltp - that’s exactly what ev manufacturers do. In fact they use the same test that I’ve cars do as far as I know.

I don’t believe it’s right that they have manipulated data, but I’m also not pretending it doesn’t happen with other car manufacturers. The outrage seems to be purely because it’s an ev manufacturer, which is fine it just seems a bit odd to me. Every time I read one of your posts the Monty python “burn the witch” sketch comes to mind….

If they’ve been found out they will be held to account, same as others have. I mean the Tesla mileage story has, as far as I know, only come out in the last few days, are you suggesting they should have been held to task before people knew about it?

Whether they will.... remains to be seen. I suspect if they do, it'll be due to lobbying pressure from the Car Giants looking to hamstring a rival (as long as they haven't been telling whoppers with their EV's that is).

My biggest beef with EV's is the issues they share with new EV's (electronics & control of the wrong kind, by the wrong people), the safety aspect (which I think might well be much reduced if they focused less on silly performance & willy-waving) - and the simple fact that they are way WAY too expensive (at least partly because of the silly "arms race" on performance versus an ICE (which they haven’t a hope of winning - esp. when doing so on price-point).
IMO, if EV's are going to gain acceptance with the mainstream - they need to start making affordable, sensible small vehicles that suit the technology & suit the commuter, city parking etc. Think more Smart Car EV, not the BMW 5-Series EV.

 

[Ubique]

Smart are a Merc. / Geely cooperation, now starting at just under £36k - and use an octothorpe as part of the model name - just as annoying as what BMW did with the Mini.

 

[daleyd]

Whether they will.... remains to be seen. I suspect if they do, it'll be due to lobbying pressure from the Car Giants looking to hamstring a rival (as long as they haven't been telling whoppers with their EV's that is).

My biggest beef with EV's is the issues they share with new EV's (electronics & control of the wrong kind, by the wrong people), the safety aspect (which I think might well be much reduced if they focused less on silly performance & willy-waving) - and the simple fact that they are way WAY too expensive (at least partly because of the silly "arms race" on performance versus an ICE (which they haven’t a hope of winning - esp. when doing so on price-point).
IMO, if EV's are going to gain acceptance with the mainstream - they need to start making affordable, sensible small vehicles that suit the technology & suit the commuter, city parking etc. Think more Smart Car EV, not the BMW 5-Series EV.

Well, no doubt they will come. As with anything “new”, it will typically always be introduced on higher end vehicles first, as a flag waving exercise and also because the people with the disposable income to splash out on new stuff will be buying higher end cars to finance this. Look back at the history of S class mercs, almost every new innovation was introduced on these (and this class of car) before it became mainstream and then became available to the masses.

Ev are no different, why would they be? Tesla started making high end model s - they were hugely expensive high end vehicles. Now they have moved into bmw 3 series territory with the model3. Mg are making ev that are focus price range.

Despite what you might think, our ev was actually very comparable price wise with an equivalent ice car we were looking at. If I was going back 3-4 years before we bought ours then there was nothing available in the price range we were looking at. 18 months later there are vehicles that are in the price bracket below.

 

[GRW]

Fully agree with the above, the 'problem' is that either people don't have the driveway space to charge at home -or- as I've experienced, most BEV's & hybrids are company cars and they won't charge at home as that costs them money they can't claim back. So when there is an issue with the high-current charger or the charge flap not opening, it's a big problem. Yes, it's down to the reliability of the vehicle parts in the main, it's also an issue with the 'company car driver' mindset.

I can understand that the EV makers want a piece of the lucrative & high volume company car market.
I can see the Govt wanting to push for Co's to adopt the EV.
My experience of (as you say) the "Co. Car Mindset" is that their car is very much a status symbol & a symbol of their success & standing - I've met many Sales Mgrs who are obsessed with what they drive, how flash it is, what bragging rights it gives them.
It's hard to find a worse group of willy-wavers when it comes to what they drive being a penis extension.
I can't think of a worse group to market any rep mobile to, and a worse group to have driving EV's tbh.

 

[Ubique]

Well, no doubt they will come. As with anything “new”, it will typically always be introduced on higher end vehicles first, as a flag waving exercise and also because the people with the disposable income to splash out on new stuff will be buying higher end cars to finance this. Look back at the history of S class mercs, almost every new innovation was introduced on these (and this class of car) before it became mainstream and then became available to the masses.

Ev are no different, why would they be? Tesla started making high end model s - they were hugely expensive high end vehicles. Now they have moved into bmw 3 series territory with the model3. Mg are making ev that are focus price range.

Despite what you might think, our ev was actually very comparable price wise with an equivalent ice car we were looking at. If I was going back 3-4 years before we bought ours then there was nothing available in the price range we were looking at. 18 months later there are vehicles that are in the price bracket below.

The problem is that BEV's don't fit in the budgets of those that can't or won't buy < 3 year old vehicles, older ones, including hybrids are a ticking bomb, either in repair costs or the likelihood of thermal runaway in the cells.

 

[daleyd]

The problem is that BEV's don't fit in the budgets of those that can't or won't buy < 3 year old vehicles, older ones, including hybrids are a ticking bomb, either in repair costs or the likelihood of thermal runaway in the cells.

I guess, at the moment - most ones over 3 years old are either tesla model s or Nissan leaf? Early model 3 maybe? But those I believe come with an 8/10 year warranty for battery and motor drive? I’m not really enamoured with Tesla so I’d be unlikely to ever buy one anyway so I’ve never taken much notice. I guess the point I’m making is that, yes they are a bit of an unknown but becoming less so. We had a VW with a dsg gearbox, ran it for 6 years out of warranty, and pretty much any failure of that box (not unknown!) would have probably pretty much written the car off. So I totally appreciate what you are saying, but it’s not exclusive to an ev, and the longer warranties “should” provide some level of protection, for longer than a typical ice car.

Are there any figures for “thermal runaway” incidents? Without any actual data I don’t know how anyone could make any judgement. But as far as I am aware it’s not a massive problem, or at least not widely reported. But I don’t have any data so I just don’t know.

 

[Ubique]

Good point on the transmissions - a car retailer was landed with a £9k bill for a replacement transmission because he sold a 2016 vehicle that still had (what was left) of the original transmission oil in it. A lot of the older (i.e. affordable) hybrids are now suffering battery issues that generally prevent the car from being driven at all - costs are upwards of £4k, coincidentally, we recently had an S Class in that the owner had to cough for a replacement hybrid battery (about £5k fitted) two years out of warranty and no manufacturer contribution - not sure why as it wasn't replaced by us. Some of the Merc. EQ's are now around the 3 year old point, personally I'd be equally concerned about motors, PTC heaters, chargers etc. as the batteries as they can immobilise the vehicle just as well as too many bad battery cells. I don't have any figures to hand on vehicle fires by type and cause - it's not something I worry about sufficiently to collate, there was a fire in a Merc. dealer in Wittlich that started in the stores dept, it may or may not be coincidence that BEV returns were kept indoors (ours are kept outdoors) and they had to call in Polezei water cannon to pump enough water into the seat of the fire.
One telling point to me is that I probably know 40-50 vehicle technicians in the area where I work, most are working for dealerships but none of them (and most could afford to) are taking advantage of the 'staff rate' schemes to buy or lease BEV's, there's about 20 or so that have ICE or hybrid vehicles on the schemes, the rest - like me - run 'old snotters' but with a high standard of maintenance.

 

[brewdexta]

I find it difficult to see just how any company can claim to supply only "100%" renewable energy.
There will be periods when the renewable percentage on the grid cannot meet all the "green" sales/demand.
I doubt that there us any Body that collates all the "Green" unit sales per hour, v the Renewable units produced - but if there was, I'm betting there'd be periods when there was a shortfall.
Now, given that a Green Supplier isn't about to stop charging for Electricity, nor going to switch supplies off when there's not enough renewable-sourced.... that means using non-renewable generated electricity.
To me this is no "Traders Puff" Sales Pitch - if Providers cannot guarantee & 100% prove that all the Electricity they sell is Renewables Generated - then its a lie and they shouldn't be permitted to use the claim to attract customers.

My purchasing agreement is for green power. It is not an engineering agreement. Remember the baseboard that @fizzy talks about? That's why we have a grid, for all I know they may swap some night time fossil electrons for some daytime green electrons, but the net effect is that I pay for green electrons even if there is some horse trading taking part. The point is that green energy is really and does form part of a usable, real power portfolio and can't be glossed over

Electrocity seem to be investing profits In green sources, as Vanderbilt did when he made his wealth. As apposed to others that are just paying out dividends.

I'm well aware of EVs and our power generation weaknesses, however I haven't formed a mindset that many on here have where the close their mind to possibilities and concentrate on the negatives. Some people sound so authoritive while ignoring one side if the argument, future Neil Olivers?

My missus said why do you waste time with people with blinkers when you are complaining that you don't have enough workshop time? She has a point, hence why I shall bow out, enjoy.

Apologies if I have occasionally been slightly offensive, probably after I've had a few beers and get annoyed that a few old codgers seem to have an influence over the future of my daughters when they will be blissfully unaware, pushing up the daisies

Evidently Rees-Mogg is asking for an ULEZ exemption for horse drawn carriages with gas lamps so he can attend the Lords and service the odd funeral on his day off

Now I'm definitely out!

 

[premmington]

Good point on the transmissions - a car retailer was landed with a £9k bill for a replacement transmission because he sold a 2016 vehicle that still had (what was left) of the original transmission oil in it. A lot of the older (i.e. affordable) hybrids are now suffering battery issues that generally prevent the car from being driven at all - costs are upwards of £4k, coincidentally, we recently had an S Class in that the owner had to cough for a replacement hybrid battery (about £5k fitted) two years out of warranty and no manufacturer contribution - not sure why as it wasn't replaced by us. Some of the Merc. EQ's are now around the 3 year old point, personally I'd be equally concerned about motors, PTC heaters, chargers etc. as the batteries as they can immobilise the vehicle just as well as too many bad battery cells. I don't have any figures to hand on vehicle fires by type and cause - it's not something I worry about sufficiently to collate, there was a fire in a Merc. dealer in Wittlich that started in the stores dept, it may or may not be coincidence that BEV returns were kept indoors (ours are kept outdoors) and they had to call in Polezei water cannon to pump enough water into the seat of the fire.
One telling point to me is that I probably know 40-50 vehicle technicians in the area where I work, most are working for dealerships but none of them (and most could afford to) are taking advantage of the 'staff rate' schemes to buy or lease BEV's, there's about 20 or so that have ICE or hybrid vehicles on the schemes, the rest - like me - run 'old snotters' but with a high standard of maintenance.

Mechanics however wealthy they are - are not normally new car buyers - they never have been as a rule of thumb.

 

[Ubique]

Like I said, there's 20 or so that use the manufacturer schemes to lease or purchase new vehicles that I know of - when I worked for Audi I could have leased an A3 for £120pcm with it being renewed every six months, an A1 was £80pcm. There were 65 staff there, 12 leased cars on the scheme, 4 were techs so maybe the rule is changing?

 

[Robotstar5]

My experience of (as you say) the "Co. Car Mindset" is that their car is very much a status symbol & a symbol of their success & standing - I've met many Sales Mgrs who are obsessed with what they drive, how flash it is, what bragging rights it gives them.

I once went to an interview for a service engineers job and they said "you get a BMW as a company car" as though it was an incentive to take the job, I asked if I could pick a different make.

 

[fizzy]

I once went to an interview for a service engineers job and they said "you get a BMW as a company car" as though it was an incentive to take the job, I asked if I could pick a different make.

 

[minimutly]

See my post above re wltp - that’s exactly what ev manufacturers do. In fact they use the same test that Ice cars do as far as I know.

I don’t believe it’s right that they have manipulated data, but I’m also not pretending it doesn’t happen with other car manufacturers. The outrage seems to be purely because it’s an ev manufacturer, which is fine it just seems a bit odd to me. Every time I read one of your posts the Monty python “burn the witch” sketch comes to mind….

If they’ve been found out they will be held to account, same as others have. I mean the Tesla mileage story has, as far as I know, only come out in the last few days, are you suggesting they should have been held to task before people knew about it?

No. Any “outrage” will be because the range of an EV is a critical parameter, I’m surprised you don’t see that?

 

[daleyd]

No. Any “outrage” will be because the range of an EV is a critical parameter, I’m surprised you don’t see that?

My point was aimed at the person I was responding to and the astounding level of hysteria at the mere mention of an ev, and not referring to the point in general, which I get.

 

[premmington]

I once went to an interview for a service engineers job and they said "you get a BMW as a company car" as though it was an incentive to take the job, I asked if I could pick a different make.

Company car tax is no joke now.

Not a cheap "perk" on the bottom line of your wage slip.

 

[GRW]

My point was aimed at the person I was responding to and the astounding level of hysteria at the mere mention of an ev, and not referring to the point in general, which I get.

"The astounding level of hysteria" huh

For someone hysterical I (& others) seem to be making enough lucid and reasoned comment to have you putting your undercrackers on over your trousers, & donning a mask & a Cape, & crusading with gusto to defend the EV (& dismiss any/all reasons why others might not be so keen on the current EV environment & its shortcomings..... even when the information comes from technical experts in the field!).

You - refuse to accept that the EV in Britain HAS any shortcomings or issues.... & yet you're implying I'm out of step with reality?

I should have taken the advice of Mr Mark Twain

 

[premmington]

Smart are a Merc. / Geely cooperation, now starting at just under £36k - and use an octothorpe as part of the model name - just as annoying as what BMW did with the Mini.

Are these little new smart cars any good?

I had three of four customers with the older type ones - but the owners sold them off and did not replace them with "like for like".

I never see a smart car now - are they selling them in volume?

 

[daleyd]

"The astounding level of hysteria" huh

For someone hysterical I (& others) seem to be making enough lucid and reasoned comment to have you putting your undercrackers on over your trousers, & donning a mask & a Cape, & crusading with gusto to defend the EV (& dismiss any/all reasons why others might not be so keen on the current EV environment & its shortcomings..... even when the information comes from technical experts in the field!).

You - refuse to accept that the EV in Britain HAS any shortcomings or issues.... & yet you're implying I'm out of step with reality?

I should have taken the advice of Mr Mark Twain

No, I’ve not said any of that, what I have done is give my actual experience of running and owning one. Nothing more nothing less.

I have no intention of trying to convince you or anyone else to get one, but when I read things from people who don’t own one that don’t bear any resemblance to my own (and others), real actual experience I am quite happy to speak up.

 

[GRW]

No, I’ve not said any of that, what I have done is give my actual experience of running and owning one. Nothing more nothing less.

I have no intention of trying to convince you or anyone else to get one, but when I read things from people who don’t own one that don’t bear any resemblance to my own (and others), real actual experience I am quite happy to speak up.

Tell me - just how long is this experience of yours?
And... how many EV's have you owned?
How many EV's have you worked on?

 

[Ubique]

Are these little new smart cars any good?

I had three of four customers with the older type ones - but the owners sold them off and did not replace them with "like for like".

I never see a smart car now - are they selling them in volume?

It's all in a state of flux at the moment, they've cut the dealer network by 60% and Geely insisted that the Smart operation is distinctly separate from the Merc. one - even separate diagnostics and tech's. I don't know how well that is going to work in reality.

I've not seen one on the road but I get the feeling that they're cutting the 'old' Smart owners loose and going after a different demographic - especially given the prices! A bit like BMW did with Mini & VW with Beetle.