Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[minimutly]

From what I’ve read, the “standby premium” for wind currently comes in about 12% for offshore and 16% for onshore wind, and is factored in to the levelised costs. So while there is an overhead in providing this, it’s still a cheap energy source.

The main issue still seems to be the way the energy market works, with all generators being paid the rate for the highest generator cost (or rather the cost of the last unit disconnected from the grid, which is invariably gas) , rather than the true cost - until this gets fixed then we seem to be at the mercy of gas prices.

You’re contradicting yourself there - if you pay renewables less, then the incentive to build them reduces...
And still ignoring the simple fact that sometimes, for long periods the wind just does not blow - it’s a fact, and because of this, no matter how many turbines you have, 100 times nothing is still nothing - hence you have to have an alternative. It’s so basically obvious...
So if you want to disconnect the product price from the product, what do you want to use as the pricing mechanism? Go back to my first sentence in this post for help...

 

[daleyd]

You’re contradicting yourself there - if you pay renewables less, then the incentive to build them reduces...
And still ignoring the simple fact that sometimes, for long periods the wind just does not blow - it’s a fact, and because of this, no matter how many turbines you have, 100 times nothing is still nothing - hence you have to have an alternative. It’s so basically obvious...
So if you want to disconnect the product price from the product, what do you want to use as the pricing mechanism? Go back to my first sentence in this post for help...

I don't think I've contradicted anything, as I dont think ive said what you think I have?

I don't have the answers, and fairly obviously it's not going to be easy to change, but as it stands currently this is the situation we are in.

The alternatives seem to be more nuclear (probably a good thing, and something we are doing - but a longtime to build, and has its own issues) or scrap renewables and use more gas, which doesn't seem palatable either.

 

[fizzy]

So too, would the ‘strike price’ - however it is calculated (inflation rate, RPI, CPI, etc?) at the contract signing stage.

Let’s look at these ‘strike prices’ a bit. The ‘strike price for the hinkley c nuclear was about £92/MWh - hate to think how much that has increased to, now. That cost will be paid (and inflated) over 35 years of production? Now , what was the strike price for these wind farms? Less than £40/MWh?

And here you are telling us new nuclear generation is cheap. Your children and grandchildren will be paying for it!

These cancelled (or postponed) wind turbines will, for sure, be built at a better strike price - but still far, far lower than that for hinkley c. Do go away and work out the real differences in lifetime cost of nuclear versus the equivalent volume of wind farm electricity produced. Your calculations would shut down your claims of price comparison. Yes, we need some nuclear for a diversified generation portfolio - but it is going to cost £billions compared to renewables.

I have. Look at the prices of the Rolls Royce SMRs.
The strike prices for wind were just to grab the contracts. People knew they could never be fulfilled as has been shown by them pulling out.
Why does France have cheaper electricity than us?

 

[addjunkie]

Why does France have cheaper electricity than us?

Two reasons, firstly if they didnt they would protest properly as the french do, and givernment would fix it for fear of another revolution.
An secondly they have built their power stations in days gone by, not trebbled the price of the new ones by spending at least 10 years talking through the planning stages.

 

[fizzy]

Achieved by basically a Dutch auction by tender, yes. But plenty out there that are happily operating at strike prices of only a tenner, or less, above the ones to which you are so eagerly referring (not yet constructed). A huge difference between 50 quid and 105 quid - for exactly the same item.

Does that low price include the vast amounts they are paid to stop generating when there is too much wind?
And who exactly has bid on and sticks to £10 per mw/h? Figures please?
Cheapest around is £45 per mw/h. Way off your £10! And many of these cheap deals are yet to deliver.
www.lowcarboncontracts.uk/cfds
In fact plenty of windfarms are over £100!

 

[fizzy]

ERR no! The reason for the back-tracking is the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Nothing else! They inow the reactors are close to the end of their life, but had no alternative than to restart them after the invasion actions - because the whole of Europe was affected by sanctions, gas pipelines, etc.

Pleeease, Fizzy, get real and don’t expect everyone to be hood-winked by your tunnel vision.

£10 per mw/h?
And why should we be so reliant on gas?

 

[daleyd]

£10 per mw/h?
And why should we be so reliant on gas?

Seeing as any new nuclear isn’t going to be built at the wave of a hand, despite what you might think, we are where we are.

Now only 1 country I’m the entire world has gone down the nuclear route to the extent that France has, and given the upcoming pain they will be facing in terms of decommissioning costs and timescales then there’s no real surprise they are scaling back on their previous ambitions. They will still be decommissioning their first gen stuff after the current generation has been switched off. Edf are all but nationalised and crippled by cost overruns and debts. Lots of electricity costs in France are hidden by adding them to the state budget.

Why would this be? Could it that France and France alone has the right idea and every other country on the planet doesn’t? Or could it be that there’s probably some balance to be had that lies somewhere in between?

More nuclear? Of course. But let’s not pretend it isn’t actually quite difficult and actually expensive, or that it will ever be nuclear only.

 

[minimutly]

I don't think I've contradicted anything, as I dont think ive said what you think I have?

I don't have the answers, and fairly obviously it's not going to be easy to change, but as it stands currently this is the situation we are in.

The alternatives seem to be more nuclear (probably a good thing, and something we are doing - but a longtime to build, and has its own issues) or scrap renewables and use more gas, which doesn't seem palatable either.

My take was you were supporting more renewables, and you did suggest the price for renewable generation should not be based on the gas price - which infers it should be lower (by ad,iiedly an undefined amount).
So if I got that wrong then forgive me. Personally I wonder what level of on/offshore wind the renewables lobby will be happy at? Two or three times our peak demand? Clearly this will have issues in terms of standby enforcement costs (and therefore viability), but also of course that amount is not likely to be enough when the wind doesn’t blow. So it’s doomed to failure, ultimately?

 

[daleyd]

My take was you were supporting more renewables, and you did suggest the price for renewable generation should not be based on the gas price - which infers it should be lower (by ad,iiedly an undefined amount).
So if I got that wrong then forgive me. Personally I wonder what level of on/offshore wind the renewables lobby will be happy at? Two or three times our peak demand? Clearly this will have issues in terms of standby enforcement costs (and therefore viability), but also of course that amount is not likely to be enough when the wind doesn’t blow. So it’s doomed to failure, ultimately?

I don’t really know a huge amount it, and I’m not supporting renewables really - but the bits I have read suggest that the “standby premium” is already factored in.

There was a huge uptake in renewables when the gas price was much lower so presumably that price was OK?

It’s the same for any other non gas energy source, not just wind (nuclear,hydro etc). They all get higher prices despite their operating costs being static. No one complained or cared when gas prices were low.

 

[fizzy]

Seeing as any new nuclear isn’t going to be built at the wave of a hand, despite what you might think, we are where we are.

Now only 1 country I’m the entire world has gone down the nuclear route to the extent that France has, and given the upcoming pain they will be facing in terms of decommissioning costs and timescales then there’s no real surprise they are scaling back on their previous ambitions. They will still be decommissioning their first gen stuff after the current generation has been switched off. Edf are all but nationalised and crippled by cost overruns and debts. Lots of electricity costs in France are hidden by adding them to the state budget.

Why would this be? Could it that France and France alone has the right idea and every other country on the planet doesn’t? Or could it be that there’s probably some balance to be had that lies somewhere in between?

More nuclear? Of course. But let’s not pretend it isn’t actually quite difficult and actually expensive, or that it will ever be nuclear only.

I know more nuclear won't happen overnight.
Nick clegg refused to commit to new nuclear years ago saying there was no point as it wouldn't be ready until 2022
The French are now accelerating their nuclear industry.

French Parliament passes law to accelerate construction of new nuclear reactors

The law, officially adopted by the Assemblée Nationale on Tuesday, May 16, will allow preparatory work to begin at the Penly power plant site in northern France as soon as 2024.

www.lemonde.fr

I suspect the biggest problem with nuclear is our current government's of either colour only look to the short term. They don't care about the future.

 

[minimutly]

Seeing as any new nuclear isn’t going to be built at the wave of a hand, despite what you might think, we are where we are.

Now only 1 country I’m the entire world has gone down the nuclear route to the extent that France has, and given the upcoming pain they will be facing in terms of decommissioning costs and timescales then there’s no real surprise they are scaling back on their previous ambitions. They will still be decommissioning their first gen stuff after the current generation has been switched off. Edf are all but nationalised and crippled by cost overruns and debts. Lots of electricity costs in France are hidden by adding them to the state budget.

Why would this be? Could it that France and France alone has the right idea and every other country on the planet doesn’t? Or could it be that there’s probably some balance to be had that lies somewhere in between?

More nuclear? Of course. But let’s not pretend it isn’t actually quite difficult and actually expensive, or that it will ever be nuclear only.

I’m not a massive nuclear fan, just look at the build and decommissioning costs of previously built sites. However, I see little alternative for the longer term base load. Whether the “small” distributed reactors can be built quickly, run safely and efficiently, and be decommissioned cheaply remains to be seen... What are the alternatives? Where are FOE on this? In the short term there is no answer but wind and gas - plenty of this around here....

 

[daleyd]

I know more nuclear won't happen overnight.
Nick clegg refused to commit to new nuclear years ago saying there was no point as it wouldn't be ready until 2022
The French are now accelerating their nuclear industry.

French Parliament passes law to accelerate construction of new nuclear reactors

The law, officially adopted by the Assemblée Nationale on Tuesday, May 16, will allow preparatory work to begin at the Penly power plant site in northern France as soon as 2024.

www.lemonde.fr

I suspect the biggest problem with nuclear is our current government's of either colour only look to the short term. They don't care about the future.

Hardly any have been built worldwide for decades, even France haven’t built many since early 90’s, and the ones they have built recently (flammanville) have massively overrun in both time and cost.

So, just our government problem or maybe an inherent issue with nuclear itself?

We’ve probably neglected it too much, and seem to be going some way to putting that right with the 2 new build and SMR - but equally you can’t simply hand wave all the inherent issues that come with it away, or the fact that it is pretty costly.

 

[GRW]

Isn't the UK already a massive bet importer of electricity, purchased & cabled in from other nations - not least France?
(Who have Reactors just across the channel & closer to London & SE than some of our own Nuclear?).

So - the country with the Generation Capacity Surplus - gets to export & make money to pay for their infrastructure.... from the procrastinating (& skint plus we sold off [gave away] our Public Utilities to the Private Sector)?

Aren't we doing well

 

[daleyd]

Isn't the UK already a massive bet importer of electricity, purchased & cabled in from other nations - not least France?
(Who have Reactors just across the channel & closer to London & SE than some of our own Nuclear?).

So - the country with the Generation Capacity Surplus - gets to export & make money to pay for their infrastructure.... from the procrastinating (& skint plus we sold off [gave away] our Public Utilities to the Private Sector)?

Aren't we doing well

Annually I don’t think it’s a huge amount, and last year we were actually a net exporter as lots of the French plants were shut for various reasons.

 

[GRW]

Annually I don’t think it’s a huge amount, and last year we were actually a net exporter as lots of the French plants were shut for various reasons.

Overall, we are a Nett importer of Energy (also oil & gas) though yes?
AFAIK the UK is at or over its generating capacity, the networks lack the infrastructure in many areas to utilise and carry/deliver that capacity (let alone all the extra EV charge point feeds & increasing demand and is way behind the curve in increasing generation capability (& losing ground, not gaining it).
That trend surely indicates that the UK has to be getting increasingly dependent on buying-in (if it can carry & distribute that energy).
To top it off, our Govt is forcing on the reduction of ICE & transfer to EV, thereby compounding the situation.

That's surely got to set off alarm bells, and raise serious questions about the competency of out Administration?

(I reckon if you gave half of our elected & non-elected representatives & decision-makers a box of crayons & a colouring book each, they'd try eating the crayons).

 

[daleyd]

Overall, we are a Nett importer of Energy (also oil & gas) though yes?
AFAIK the UK is at or over its generating capacity, the networks lack the infrastructure in many areas to utilise and carry/deliver that capacity (let alone all the extra EV charge point feeds & increasing demand and is way behind the curve in increasing generation capability (& losing ground, not gaining it).
That trend surely indicates that the UK has to be getting increasingly dependent on buying-in (if it can carry & distribute that energy).
To top it off, our Govt is forcing on the reduction of ICE & transfer to EV, thereby compounding the situation.

That's surely got to set off alarm bells, and raise serious questions about the competency of out Administration?

(I reckon if you gave half of our elected & non-elected representatives & decision-makers a box of crayons & a colouring book each, they'd try eating the crayons).

Yes, not disputing the fact we are a net importer (aside from last year) - but just saying that’s it’s not huge amounts. And also, if you don’t take the glass half empty view it’s probably not a bad idea, seeing as almost every other other European country has interconnectors of some kind. You can see how it helps in sharing the load, at times we send plenty of energy out to places like Ireland, Norway etc and vice versa

 

[GRW]

Yes, not disputing the fact we are a net importer (aside from last year) - but just saying that’s it’s not huge amounts. And also, if you don’t take the glass half empty view it’s probably not a bad idea, seeing as almost every other other European country has interconnectors of some kind. You can see how it helps in sharing the load, at times we send plenty of energy out to places like Ireland, Norway etc and vice versa

I'm not saying the ability to import/export/share is bad!
I'm saying having a privatised open market electricity supply for the nation, where its got a shortfall already, & demand growing far greater & faster than generation capacity....
... is moronic.

As an EV owner so dependent upon electricity for more than most (and that's very high anyway)..... I'd have thought the poor state & rubbish management of the nation's energy would be something you'd feel needed a drastic shot in the arm - not brushing it under the carpet.

 

[Erie Fred]

I'm not saying the ability to import/export/share is bad!
I'm saying having a privatised open market electricity supply for the nation, where its got a shortfall already, & demand growing far greater & faster than generation capacity....
... is moronic.

As an EV owner so dependent upon electricity for more than most (and that's very high anyway)..... I'd have thought the poor state & rubbish management of the nation's energy would be something you'd feel needed a drastic shot in the arm - not brushing it under the carpet.

Meh...."We will fix it all with software"......

 

[GRW]

Meh...."We will fix it all with software"......

Idiot 1: "Let's put a very expensive row of EV Fast Chargers in the Service Stations"

Idiot 2: "great idea - let's spend a ton of Taxpayers money on it right away"
.
.
.
.
(Months later)....

Idiot 2: "Well, we've installed those Chargers- went great. All done. One teensy-weensy glitch though"

Idiot 1: "What glitch?"

Idiot 2: "It seems the power company don't have the spare capacity to run them. Oh yes - and the cabling & distribution of the Station will have to be upgraded. Oh, and the local area network, Main Transformer & sub-station are at capacity, so..... we can't actually USE these Chargers for the forseeable future - maybe not for years".

Idiot 1: Ach, don't concern yourself 2 - our remit was to install Chargers - and we achieved that. It's a success!"

 

[premmington]

Idiot 1: "Let's put a very expensive row of EV Fast Chargers in the Service Stations"

Idiot 2: "great idea - let's spend a ton of Taxpayers money on it right away"
.
.
.
.
(Months later)....

Idiot 2: "Well, we've installed those Chargers- went great. All done. One teensy-weensy glitch though"

Idiot 1: "What glitch?"

Idiot 2: "It seems the power company don't have the spare capacity to run them. Oh yes - and the cabling & distribution of the Station will have to be upgraded. Oh, and the local area network, Main Transformer & sub-station are at capacity, so..... we can't actually USE these Chargers for the forseeable future - maybe not for years".

Idiot 1: Ach, don't concern yourself 2 - our remit was to install Chargers - and we achieved that. It's a success!"

"our remit was to install Chargers - and we achieved that. It's a success!"

I heard this called "greenwashing" a few days ago.