Arc Welder Group Test

[Muggins the Mug]

The difference between the oxfords and mordern machines is more like the difference between an electric typewriter and a word processor.

Yes you can produce a neatly typed document on an electric type writer, but the operator has be able to spell, understand grammer, also pay attention to the page layout. Any mistakes are not easily corrected.

The word processor has a vast array of tools to make life simpler and produce many different finished results.

That's not the whole story though. If a company needs to send people on a 4 week course (say) to learn to produce good weld with an Oxford, but a one week course to get the same results with a modern inverter, as Director of the company would you spend a little more on machines and a whole lot less on training? This is exactly the reason mig welding is so popular, you can show an operator how to use the gear and get decent welds in a matter of hours as mig welding is a semi automatic process. With MMA its a skill that has to be practiced over and over to get it right, hence the rigorous coding system.

Of course the down side to all the technology is that people have less training (and skill).

This is the exact same reason I want to learn the "hard way" with rods and a cheap buzz box. If I can learn and learn well with something hard to use, then I should have very little problem with better and more expensive gear. Or is my logic flawed?

I learned to use a manual typewriter at school to pass my "O" Grade long before I ever used a proper word processor.

I'm very much a believer in learn the hard way first, then learn the shortcuts. That way you've got more experience and can cope with things and situations better than you could if you only learned the easy way, if that makes sense.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[Wozzaaah]

Along with the MX-5 owners! (Sorry Woz! )

Detention for you laddie!!!

 

[Archie]

I must not stereotype people by their cars.
I must not stereotype people by their cars.
I must not stereotype people by their cars.

 

[malcolm]

This is the exact same reason I want to learn the "hard way" with rods and a cheap buzz box. If I can learn and learn well with something hard to use, then I should have very little problem with better and more expensive gear. Or is my logic flawed?

I've always argued exactly the opposite.

It is easier to achieve a reasonable standard when learning with good equipment. Once you have a reasonable standard you then know how things should work and can make the best of nastier equipment. Or have a good idea which bit of equipment to change if you are unable to achieve a good standard with practice on the cheap kit.

Reasonable kit makes it easier to learn, and gives an idea of what should be happening. It doesn't take the skill out of the job - if anything it allows you to develop more skills doing things that cheap kit just won't let you do. It'll give you good feedback if your rod angle or arc length is wrong.

Too many people buy equipment on price alone, don't learn to weld properly, and give up without achieving anything. It's nothing to do with typewriters, more like deciding to become a stone mason and buying a blunt chisel.

 

[weldequip]

Too many people buy equipment on price

Malcolm, those words should have been written into President Obama's inauguration speech!
weldequip

 

[matt1978]

Malcolm, those words should have been written into President Obama's inauguration speech!
weldequip

Ask not what can your welding supplier do for you.................but what you can do for your welding supplier!!

 

[GeorgeB]

The difference between the oxfords and mordern machines is more like the difference between an electric typewriter and a word processor. Yes you can produce a neatly typed document on an electric type writer, but the operator has be able to spell, understand grammer, also pay attention to the page layout.

As you know, I was well-impressed with your MIG welder on Sunday. Even at my very first attempt, it seemed like point and shoot, with virtually no skill required to get a fair result! What can be better than that if you have the storage space for such a large unit and can justify the cost of the gas and other consumables?

So I can see your analogy as far as MIG vs Arc but not Arc vs Arc as in differences between the units mentioned in this thread. The buck stops with any of these arc units at the tip of the weld rod. How they 'smooth' and 'process' the electricity up to that point is their business. It's the result which counts. I fully accept Snowcat's point that his £2500 Lorch machine is primarily about TIG and it's not fair to call it a £2500 arc welder.

I agree with Muggins that it's better to learn the basics first with simple gear. Or, at least, that's the approach I'm using by sticking with Arc for the time being. I also used that approach with a fully manual SLR film camera, rather than using a point and shoot automatic camera.

 

[GeorgeB]

Malcolm, those words should have been written into President Obama's inauguration speech!
weldequip

Yes, any suggestion by President Obama that buyers should always select the most expensive items going would surely have been in the best interest of salesmen all around the world. I have high hopes for that guy and am confident his judgement is a lot better than that.

 

[malcolm]

I also used that approach with a fully manual SLR film camera, rather than using a point and shoot automatic camera.

Is your analogy the right way around there?

 

[GeorgeB]

Is your analogy the right way around there?

I'm not sure! I was picking up on what I see as Muggins' valid point that there might be advantages in learning on relatively 'difficult' gear which probably requires a greater level of skill. To use a fully manual SLR, I think you need to undertand concepts such as focus, depth of field and aperture settings, which may then prove useful even if you move on to an automatic camera later. You need to balance gas flow, wire speed, etc with a MIG but it's still reckoned to be easier to learn than arc or TIG welding.

 

[Muggins the Mug]

I guess there is two schools of thought then... One being to learn on something easy and progress, the other being to start on something difficult and develop the skills the hard way. Or is that an oversimplification?

Regards,

Ian.

 

[weldequip]

SLR's are the camera connoisseur's choice are they not?
weldequip

 

[malcolm]

I'm not sure! I was picking up on what I see as Muggins' valid point that there might be advantages in learning on relatively 'difficult' gear which probably requires a greater level of skill. To use a fully manual SLR, I think you need to undertand concepts such as focus, depth of field and aperture settings, which may then prove useful even if you move on to an automatic camera later. You need to balance gas flow, wire speed, etc with a MIG but it's still reckoned to be easier to learn than arc or TIG welding.

I used to play around with black and white on a manual SLR. I agree the learning improved my photography no end.

Your analogy is not valid though. Would be more correct to compare my first 1.5 megapixel digital camera with no user alterable settings (and I think a fixed focus) with my current semi SLR 8 megapixel camera. It would have been difficult to learn photography with that first digital camera - it took rubbish photos whatever you did with it.

Besides, you are arguing the point for the sake of it. If the Lorch was £40 and the Cosmo £400 which one would you be arguing was better for learning?

Edit> just spotted the topic had moved on without me noticing.

 

[irondarren]

might as well have my shillings worth here.
Which is easier to learn to ride a bicycle or a unicycle. A bicycle isnt that difficult to learn to ride, you will most likely master the skill before you give up. But learning to ride a unicycle my opinion is you are more likely to give up before you learn.
I think Malcolm is right in his analogy. trouble is a buzz box can be had for under £50, so you are more likely to try with a buzz box. I do often wonder how many people buy cheap difficult to learn with equipment and actually give up after a while.

 

[Muggins the Mug]

trouble is a buzz box can be had for under £50, so you are more likely to try with a buzz box. I do often wonder how many people buy cheap difficult to learn with equipment and actually give up after a while.

Some would suggest that separates the men from the boys. But joking aside I do see both sides of the arguement, if I won a lot of money I'd buy a lorch or throw wads of money at Weldequip to buy his finest MIG. Until that time or till my job prospects improve, I'll have to stick with the Aldi £40 special and make the most of it's (and my) limitations.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[aero]

Its more important when learning to have good stuff. Its hard enough to learn a new skill without **** poor equipment hampering you. And I've now officially filed all those cheapy buzz boxes as **** poor. I'd rather buy something from a quality range secondhand then new rubbish.

 

[Muggins the Mug]

And I've now officially filed all those cheapy buzz boxes as **** poor. I'd rather buy something from a quality range secondhand then new rubbish.

Hi Aero,

I'm not disagreeing with you but without a car to pick it up and transport it, a second/third hand Oxford wasn't an option for me.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[aero]

Not all buzz boxes are cheap crap, some actually work OK. I used a Clarke machine I think it was, 160 amps with fan. Welded with it for around and hour at 100 amps before it clicked off. Then off it went again, no drama and seemed to weld OK.

A rod and a half at 90 amps before its reduced to a glowing wreck isn't worth £40 to me!

 

[Muggins the Mug]

Not all buzz boxes are cheap crap, some actually work OK. I used a Clarke machine I think it was, 160 amps with fan. Welded with it for around and hour at 100 amps before it clicked off. Then off it went again, no drama and seemed to weld OK.

A rod and a half at 90 amps before its reduced to a glowing wreck isn't worth £40 to me!

That Powercraft I got from Aldi has been through two 3.25mm 6013's @ 115 Amps without cutting out or smoking, I just ran out of metal to weld though.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[scarecrow]

As I said before I would be more worried about the wires heating up inside the machine
if a Chinese motor is rated three 3hp. It means that it can produce 3hp before it goes on fire they must rate their welders in a similar fashion