Boxing a fireplace in preparation for fitting a stove

[GraemeVW]

The distances around the stove, there are 3 main factors.
Distance to combustables, which isn't an issue for you.
The manufacturers distance, if they have one, which is so the body doesn't overheat and buckle/crack
And having air space for circulation. Air gets drawn up from behind the stove. If its too close, heat will go into the wall instead.
You may also have to consider heat into the fabric of the building, but from what I saw in my skim, your all good.

What stove are you fitting?
What grade liner?
Got all your connection and termination details sorted?

It's all quite straight forward but if you want to know how info anything, just ask. I've pretty much worked out the easiest ways to do things well as I probably fit 3 a week on average.

 

[Screwdriver]

Just for fun, here is one I did back in 2008 in my last house, it was a nice easy job.

View attachment 318387

It definately didn't meet the regs, as the flue went into a 5 inch liner, but no problem as I removed it when I sold the house.

View attachment 318390

Eventually I will install this one here in the new house, its just sitting there for the time being.

View attachment 318391

This fireplace has also well and trully been hacked about

That green stove/heater is bloody lovely!

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

The distances around the stove, there are 3 main factors.
Distance to combustables, which isn't an issue for you.
The manufacturers distance, if they have one, which is so the body doesn't overheat and buckle/crack
And having air space for circulation. Air gets drawn up from behind the stove. If its too close, heat will go into the wall instead.
You may also have to consider heat into the fabric of the building, but from what I saw in my skim, your all good.

What stove are you fitting?
What grade liner?
Got all your connection and termination details sorted?

It's all quite straight forward but if you want to know how info anything, just ask. I've pretty much worked out the easiest ways to do things well as I probably fit 3 a week on average.

I bought everything online, and got the stove, flue, flue/liner adapter, closing plate and cowel from stove world. I bought the cheaper liner as is won't get serious use so cheaped out.

 

[GraemeVW]

@RaceDiagnostics
Are they seriously putting a lifetime guarantee on a 316 liner! And are they seriously saying 316 is ok for smokeless coal!!

316 is wood only really. Normaly comes with 15 year guarantee. 904 or mix for smokeless fuel and that normaly has a 25 year guarantee.

They won't last that long though! We replace liners all the time.
They always have a way of backing out of the guarantee.
Make sure your fuel is dry! Moisture in the liner reacts with the soot and creates chemicals that eat the liner.

A 316 liner, and smokeless coal, I'd expect it to be rusty lace in 3 or 4 years even without hard use.

 

[GraemeVW]

Oh, and most (but not all!) Liners have a way up. They are normally marked. If not, look inside to see how it's wound. The overlaps should lay like roof tiles so any moisture running down doesn't get in between the winds.

 

[JimmyS]

Watch your hands on the cut edges of the liner as well - the one I fitted here was as sharp as hell.

 

[GraemeVW]

Watch your hands on the cut edges of the liner as well - the one I fitted here was as sharp as hell.

Even the outsides!

Took me probably 3 years of doing this job to learn how to not cut my hands every week (I hate working in gloves!)

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

That green stove/heater is bloody lovely!

We love it too, I found it back in 2007 in an architectural salvage yard, it cost about £600 but is in near perfect condition.

 

[JimmyS]

Even the outsides!

Took me probably 3 years of doing this job to learn how to not cut my hands every week (I hate working in gloves!)

I remember cursing like hell tied to the chimney dripping blood trying to get the liner started whilst my son was trying to pull it down from the fire opening, trying to turn the whole lot in the right direction to get it round the kick in the chimney. I'm not great at putting on gloves either but if I were doing it again I would get them on.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

I went with hardiebacker in the end and got it fixed in position with anchor bolts and mortar down the voids in the back.

I've decided to go with the rear position for the flue as the space above will be a bit limited to manoeuvre the flue in the top.

I was going to tile but will just paint instead with high temp paint as the backer board won't be visible.

 

[GraemeVW]

Rear exit isn't really do able there. Not from a professional point of view.
You can't go 90 degrees off the back of the stove as it can block with soot.
You have to go into a T piece so there is a sump for soot to collect.
All well and good, you can do that.
But no sweep is going to be able to get to the sump to clear the soot.

Your in Scotland right?
I don't know if it will be slightly different up there, but here that would never pass regs, can't be signed off, and the first sweep that see's it would probably condemn it.

You would have to go 45 degrees of the top, might have to remove the throat lintle. You would still need to close of the chimney with a closure plate so the liner is all enclosed which would be tricky, but not impossible.

In a situation like yours we either fit an inset stove, or maybe a little hobbit or similar in order to get enough room.

Having said all that, if your happy not having any paperwork and keep ONTOP of the soot situ, then go ahead.

I'm not being judgemental, just pointing out things so you are aware of all the details.

 

[GraemeVW]

Also, having said all that, bear in mind Scottish regs might be different. They might not mind a 90 on the back.
If what I mentioned does bother you, check before being too concerned about what I wrote.
I only really have an English perspective.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

Hi Graeme, this is the tee I bought. This will go into the flange on the back which is bolted in place from inside the stove.

For sweeping I will unbolt the flange and lift the stove out of the way and give access from the door on the bottom of the tee.

 

[GraemeVW]

Hi Graeme, this is the tee I bought. This will go into the flange on the back which is bolted in place from inside the stove.

View attachment 318747


For sweeping I will unbolt the flange and lift the stove out of the way and give access from the door on the bottom of the tee.

A fair bit of hassle, but it will work!
(Insert thumbs up emoji )

 

[GraemeVW]

A few little thought.

The T will want fixings holding it to the collar.
The T to collar joint isn't serviceable with the stove in place.

I guess you already thought of that, hence saying you will unbolt the collar.

If your going to do that, use good bolts! Collar bolts take alot of abuse from heat and soot. Most of the time when I undo them, they sheer. Maybe use stainless?

As well as fire cementing all the joints (collar to T, T to adapter, adapter to liner) put screws in them. Don't want any joints coming loose as access will be awkward.


Seems like your pretty on top of things though.

 

[RaceDiagnostics]

Thanks for the tips, I did plan to buy a Hobbit, but it's on a 4 month lead time. Guess they are pretty popular.

 

[GraemeVW]

When it's all together, see if you can sweep it without removing the stove. You may be able to. If you can, you may be able to Hoover out the sump.
Would be easier than uninstalling.

The problem with uninstalling to sweep, from a professional point of view, it basically cases as another instal with tests etc.
I think it would void any certificate.

But that's not looking like an issue for you, only mention it as it explains why we can't really install with the sweep plans you have.

Thanks for the tips, I did plan to buy a Hobbit, but it's on a 4 month lead time. Guess they are pretty popular.

Yes, but alot of stuff is on similar lead times!
We have been very busy all year, manufacturers can't keep up with demand!

 

[Gareth J]

@RaceDiagnostics
316 is wood only really. Normaly comes with 15 year guarantee. 904 or mix for smokeless fuel and that normaly has a 25 year guarantee.

They won't last that long though! We replace liners all the time.
They always have a way of backing out of the guarantee.

Hopefully not a thread derail as the OP has the same liner; I cheaped out and put in a 316 liner a few years ago. Is insulated with special 1m lengths of foil coated rockwool type stuff.

I burn only well seasoned wood and only burn hotish and hopefully cleanly. Try to keep exhaust temps entering the flue within the "best operation" range of the little dial thermometer.

Anything else I can do to prolong life?
What kills them? Condensation? Overheating? Occasionally a lesser mortal lights the fire and forgets to shut it down. I cringe at the thought of the spiral glowing red hot.

Once damage is done, what are the symptoms? Presumably a knot of unwound spiral at sweeping time but anything in the mean time?

Apologies for all the question!

Regarding the original post, having fully cleared out an old fireplace, I can see the advantages of working with what you have, it's tidy and you don't know what lurks beneath. Mine had remnants of 4 or 5 fireplaces, including an old type range at some point. One of the iterations had called for the inside edges of the pillars to be smashed off in order to gain a few extra inches. Rebuilt it in the end but finding corner stone of the correct dimensions to tie in with existing stonework was painfully slow.

 

[GraemeVW]

Hopefully not a thread derail as the OP has the same liner; I cheaped out and put in a 316 liner a few years ago. Is insulated with special 1m lengths of foil coated rockwool type stuff.

I burn only well seasoned wood and only burn hotisg and hopefully cleanly. Try to keep exhaust temps entering the flue within the "best operation" range of the little dial thermometer.

Anything else I can do to prolong life?
What kills them? Condensation? Overheating? Occasionally a lesser mortal lights the fire and forgets to shut it down. I cringe at the thought of the spiral glowing red hot.

Once damage is done, what are the symptoms? Presumably a knot of unwound spiral at sweeping time but anything in the mean time?

Apologies for all the question!

Regarding the original post, having fully cleared out an old fireplace, I can see the advantages of working with what you have, it's tidy and you don't know what lurks beneath. Mine had remnants of 4 or 5 fireplaces, including an old type range at some point. One of the iterations had called for the inside edges of the pillars to be smashed off in order to gain a few extra inches. Rebuilt it in the end but finding corner stone of the correct dimensions to tie in with existing stonework was painfully slow.

The special 1m lengths of foil coated Rockwood worries me.
Have you a link to what you used?
It may well be fine and something I don't know of though.

As for what kills them, it's the chemicals that burning smokeless coal created that really does them in.
With wood they are much better as the by products are far less harsh.
However, moisture mixing with any soot is what kills them. That's why they need sweeping regularly and dont burn anything wet!
Sweep them at the end of the season, not the beginning, then they don't sit there for months with soot in them.

As for the insulation, sadly, insulating around a liner normally only reduces their life as it holds moisture.
I'm also only aware of 2 forms of insulation that can be in contact with a liner. Vermiculite, and another I can't remember the name of. It's like an aerated clay like bead stuff.

As for symptoms, yes, when swept bits of liner will come down. If it gets to the point where you have spirals of liner coming down then it's been in a bad way for quite some time!

They normally fail from the top down.

 

[Gareth J]

The special 1m lengths of foil coated Rockwood worries me.
Have you a link to what you used?
It may well be fine and something I don't know of though.

As for what kills them, it's the chemicals that burning smokeless coal created that really does them in.
With wood they are much better as the by products are far less harsh.
However, moisture mixing with any soot is what kills them. That's why they need sweeping regularly and dont burn anything wet!
Sweep them at the end of the season, not the beginning, then they don't sit there for months with soot in them.

As for the insulation, sadly, insulating around a liner normally only reduces their life as it holds moisture.
I'm also only aware of 2 forms of insulation that can be in contact with a liner. Vermiculite, and another I can't remember the name of. It's like an aerated clay like bead stuff.

As for symptoms, yes, when swept bits of liner will come down. If it gets to the point where you have spirals of liner coming down then it's been in a bad way for quite some time!

They normally fail from the top down.

Thanks,

I used these type lengths.

Rockwool Tube For 125mm Flue Liner - 2 x 1000mm Lengths

Application Rockwool Tubes are used to insulate flue liner and thus reduce the possibility of condensation in the flue. Usually installed in large open chimneys or when the chimney is situated in an open aspect, and is subject to harsh weather conditions. For 125mm diameter liner. 2 x 1000mm Lengths

www.fluesystems.com

Though not bought from there, I forgot where.

All sounds sensible. Should also be sure to leave the draught sliders open a crack in summer too like that, should help reduce condensation risk.