Climate change, real or no deal.

[piman]

hello Screwdriver,

you can't use the bathtub anology to the global climate, It is far more complicated and self regulating than that.

The climate is very stable and deviates by a tiny amount. We have had hotter and we have had colder climates than today and humans have always prospered in the warmer periods. Using pre industrial times as an ideal temperature and a bench mark is illogical, who decided that?
What is also illogical is spending trilions and trillions of dollars, Euros, pounds etc on ineffective and unworkable 'solutions' to try and change the climate by trying to reduce our small contribution to a very small part of the atmosperic mix. Water vapour being the main greenhouse gas and is both far stronger due to it's existence in three states (vapour, liquid and solid, nothing to do with America) and that there is about fifty times more of it than CO2. We don't try and reduce water vapour emissions do we, it would be beyond our capability, yet we try and reduce CO2 which is also beyond our capability.
The money spent could and should have been far better spent in so many ways that improves the lives of man, particularly in developing countries.

By the way, having studied this for well over ten years I do know what anthropogenic means :-)

Alec

 

[grim_d]

And this is the 'green scene' side effect that we bequeath to our descendants......

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/202...ne-blades-are-pictured-piling-up-in-landfill/

View attachment 244579

American so enough said, but I'll say a a bit anyway.

That is very much a case of "can't be bothered" rather than "can't be done".

Fibreglass can be recycled into some construction materials but its probably cheaper to bury them.

As ever with humans greed and laziness conquers all.

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

American so enough said, but I'll say a a bit anyway.

That is very much a case of "can't be bothered" rather than "can't be done".

Fibreglass can be recycled into some construction materials but its probably cheaper to bury them.

As ever with humans greed and laziness conquers all.

The current form of Crapitalism and combating climate change are never going to work side by side
Until governments have the balls to say this is how its going to be. Lump it nothing will change

Scary how much influence these mega corps have

 

[grim_d]

hello Screwdriver,

you can't use the bathtub anology to the global climate, It is far more complicated and self regulating than that.

The climate is very stable and deviates by a tiny amount. We have had hotter and we have had colder climates than today and humans have always prospered in the warmer periods. Using pre industrial times as an ideal temperature and a bench mark is illogical, who decided that?
What is also illogical is spending trilions and trillions of dollars, Euros, pounds etc on ineffective and unworkable 'solutions' to try and change the climate by trying to reduce our small contribution to a very small part of the atmosperic mix. Water vapour being the main greenhouse gas and is both far stronger due to it's existence in three states (vapour, liquid and solid, nothing to do with America) and that there is about fifty times more of it than CO2. We don't try and reduce water vapour emissions do we, it would be beyond our capability, yet we try and reduce CO2 which is also beyond our capability.
The money spent could and should have been far better spent in so many ways that improves the lives of man, particularly in developing countries.

By the way, having studied this for well over ten years I do know what anthropogenic means :-)

Alec

All those damn vapers tooting away on their silly boxes!

 

[grim_d]

The current form of Crapitalism and combating climate change are never going to work side by side
Until governments have the balls to say this is how its going to be. Lump it nothing will change

Scary how much influence these mega corps have

Careful talking about capitalism, some got very upset last time I did it!

 

[garethp]

Profit?
Really?
Most of the electricity companies are losing money hand over fist. In fact electricity is sold at a loss by most suppliers - hoping the gas bill will top it up.
Quite a few new companies started to help consumers avoid being ripped off.

24 energy companies went bust in 2019 alone

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-8191219/How-energy-firms-bust-2020.html

"Many of these suppliers have exited the cut-throat market as they failed to make enough money, relying on razor-thin margins."

Bristol council set up it's own energy firm to "help" consumers - it ended up costing the council tax payers £35 millionI

https://www.business-live.co.uk/retail-consumer/bristol-council-bristol-energy-sold-18353963

As I have already said - it is all the stupid subsidises that make our electric so expensive - and it's going up all the time.

Its a myth that only 'green' energy is subsided, plenty of tax breaks, loans etc for fossil fuel as well.

If you google "wind power cost vs fossil fuels" there's plenty of results showing wind power is comparible with other forms of generation in terms of cost.

 

[fizzy]

Its a myth that only 'green' energy is subsided, plenty of tax breaks, loans etc for fossil fuel as well.

If you google "wind power cost vs fossil fuels" there's plenty of results showing wind power is comparible with other forms of generation in terms of cost.

I am not a fan of fossil fuels either.
Gas is a lot cleaner than coal though.
And how can wind power compete with gas? With all the fracking in the USA and Canada gas is dirt cheap.

Very close to Swansea there is a modern gas power station - most people don't even notice it as it isn't very big.
It produces more power in a year than the World's 2 biggest offshore windfarms. Both British.
They cost over £4 billion to build - the gas power station £350 million.

That is a lot of extra hospitals and schools etc!

 

[Munkul]

America were onboard with climate change... then they realised how much it would hurt them in the pocket... so started to deny it all, and Trump rolled back a whole swathe of environmental laws the other month.
Populism politics are a real pain when the people aren't educated...

 

[Seadog]

They cost over £4 billion to build - the gas power station £350 million.

There you have the whole thing in a nutshell.

 

[fizzy]

There you have the whole thing in a nutshell.

Last year they ran pipes from the power station to the new Swansea University - free heating!

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

Careful talking about capitalism, some got very upset last time I did it!

That's fine. People are allowed to be offended.
Doesn't change the fact that the extreme version of capitalism we have now is bad for the environment

 

[garethp]

I am not a fan of fossil fuels either.
Gas is a lot cleaner than coal though.
And how can wind power compete with gas? With all the fracking in the USA and Canada gas is dirt cheap.

Very close to Swansea there is a modern gas power station - most people don't even notice it as it isn't very big.
It produces more power in a year than the World's 2 biggest offshore windfarms. Both British.
They cost over £4 billion to build - the gas power station £350 million.

That is a lot of extra hospitals and schools etc!

But we dont have cheap fracked gas, a lot comes from europe via pipe or is shipped in as LNG from further afield which is probably why the one at Swansea was built there. Sure there is north sea oil and gas but that output has been dropping for years.

Looking at costs whats your source for the 4 billion and 350 million? Ive had a quick look and can see plenty of references to the cost of new offshore wind per mWh being half of what the government have agreed to pay for new nuclear, but nothing about overall costs.

 

[garethp]

America were onboard with climate change... then they realised how much it would hurt them in the pocket... so started to deny it all, and Trump rolled back a whole swathe of environmental laws the other month.
Populism politics are a real pain when the people aren't educated...

Hurts who in the pocket, the average American or Trump and his fossil fuel buddies.

 

[Munkul]

Hurts who in the pocket, the average American or Trump and his fossil fuel buddies.

too right.

 

[Morrisman]

Fibreglass can be recycled into some construction materials but its probably cheaper to bury them.

As ever with humans greed and laziness conquers all.

The cost of recycling should be added into the efficiency rate of the electricity produced, and costs passed on to the consumer. But they won’t do that, because it makes wind farms look bad and expensive.

The sheer cost of producing a windmill, the carbon impact of cradle to grave environmental impact of every one, has anybody ever worked that out?

And therein lies the hypocrisy of ‘green energy’, nobody ever really looks at the big picture when they make all the claims about it.

 

[Screwdriver]

Electic vehicles are more about preventing local pollution (i.e. city centres) than they are about saving the planet.

So that's a good thing.

The bad thing is we are still churning out so many cars in the first place. Our society simply isn't in the right mindset. I am more proud of my 25 year old van than I would be of a brand spanky new one. I think I am safe in saying I am among a like minded group of people here who would repair and restore rather than bin and buy.

 

[the snooper]

Electic vehicles are more about preventing local pollution (i.e. city centres) than they are about saving the planet.

So that's a good thing.

The bad thing is we are still churning out so many cars in the first place. Our society simply isn't in the right mindset. I am more proud of my 25 year old van than I would be of a brand spanky new one. I think I am safe in saying I am among a like minded group of people here who would repair and restore rather than bin and buy.

All well and good repairing rather then replace but pollution levels can't be improved so it's swings and roundabouts

 

[Munkul]

"Let's make the world a more environmentally friendly place"
"Yes, let's tax large polluters in the UK like steel and manufacturing and make them the bad guys"
"Sound great... what are they gonna do?"
"Oh i don't know... probably take the same manufacturing to the other side of the world, then we have to transport it all back across..."
"But that's ok, because at least it's somebody else's pollution"

 

[fizzy]

But we dont have cheap fracked gas, a lot comes from europe via pipe or is shipped in as LNG from further afield which is probably why the one at Swansea was built there. Sure there is north sea oil and gas but that output has been dropping for years.

Looking at costs whats your source for the 4 billion and 350 million? Ive had a quick look and can see plenty of references to the cost of new offshore wind per mWh being half of what the government have agreed to pay for new nuclear, but nothing about overall costs.

We don't have to have it - bought on the spot market.

https://www.power-technology.com/projects/baglan/

In fact the cost for Baglan was £300 million.

Gwynt a Mor £2billion plus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwynt_y_Môr

Hornsea 1
approx £2billion plus

The costs are truly staggering

Gas power stations get no subsidises at all.

 

[garethp]

The cost of recycling should be added into the efficiency rate of the electricity produced, and costs passed on to the consumer. But they won’t do that, because it makes wind farms look bad and expensive.

The sheer cost of producing a windmill, the carbon impact of cradle to grave environmental impact of every one, has anybody ever worked that out?

And therein lies the hypocrisy of ‘green energy’, nobody ever really looks at the big picture when they make all the claims about it.

View attachment 244586

Sigh, plenty of studies have been done, again a quick search will return plenty of results.

Quick summary from factcheck.org but plenty of other sites have comparible figures.

"Coal’s carbon footprint is almost 90 times larger than that of wind energy, and the footprint of natural gas is more than 40 times larger, according to the Department of Energy’s National Renewable Energy Laboratory"