Cracks.

[Engineer]

All the waffle from wheel manufacturers and those selling new wheels is all very commendable, but bears little or no relationship to the real world.

This being the case I wonder if you would like to advise why insurance companies are paying to have damaged wheels repaired in relation to accident repair work being carried out by highly professional BS approved crash repair businesses?

 

[KennyC]

In the real world things are quite different though, and the current economic situation means that many people simply cannot afford expensive new wheels, or in many cases to replace a whole set of wheels if a replacement is not available!

This is pretty much my view on things. I know less than nothing about aluminium casting/ welding but I had a bike wheel repaired becuse £40 was a lot easier to swallow than £300+ and it has survived a good 15k miles on the road. The repair was filling a little nick rather than a crack but it's the HAZ that causes problems (I think).

I don't think anyone will change the other persons view i this discussion, some people think nothing of taking risks and others have a business to look after....

 

[TechnicAl]

Engineer - Im not into motorsport so a lot of this has passed me by

When you quote " the real world" do you mean motor racing? Do they regularly repair wheels for racing cars? Dont racing car teams have enormous budgets, if so, why cant they afford new wheels?

Im not "getting" at you or anyone else I genuinely dont know or understand.

However, I will say, as a Metallurgist, I wouldnt have a welded alloy wheel on my car. Ive no experience of such things nor have I any knowledge of any failures but I do know about the properties of metals and I can imagine what would happen if a wheel broke at speed.

 

[Engineer]

By the real world I mean wheel repairs carried out by BS approved accident repair centres, mainly on behalf of insurance companies paying for the work.

Glad to hear you are well enough paid to be able to afford £300-400 for a new wheel, and have no need to opt for a repair which is often the only option for anyone less well off.

Back in the 60/70s F1 wheels were commonly modified and repaired by being welded, and not completely sure that the F1 teams back then were likely to risk failures at rather higher speeds than todays road cars?

 

[TechnicAl]

Glad to hear you are well enough paid to be able to afford £300-400 for a new wheel, and have no need to opt for a repair which is often the only option for anyone less well off.

QUOTE]

Thanks for that

As for being well paid. I spend what I can afford. If I cant afford something I go without. I wouldnt class alloy wheels as an essential. I also agree with the "you get what you pay for" school of thought. Personally I would rather have a steel wheel than a repaired alloy.

But thats just me

Im surprised by your comment re the F1 teams in the 60s/70s. Does that mean that they stopped welding wheels in the80s?

If I broke one of the alloys on my car, wouldnt it be covered by Insurance. I would assume that if the wheel broke there would be other damage as well.

Do normal road car alloy wheels break regularly?

 

[Delgado]

Unnecessary comments about peoples financial situations aside.....

To the OP (or anyone else considering doing this, or any critical repair for that matter) I would say;

Would it be cheaper/better to replace the wheel/part?

If not, Can the wheel actually be welded/ repaired? (What material is it made from, how was it formed, was it subjected to any heat treatment etc...)

If yes, are you 100% sure that there is only the one crack, and where that crack ends? If not, test with Die pen or other suitable method to be sure.

Then, when you've got all that info make the choice whether to weld/repair it, or not, knowing what the consquences to you or others could be if it fails.

FWIW I know nothing about repairing Alloy wheels (and never will, as i'll never do it), my reply is only based on what I would consider to be common sense and general engineering/welding knowledge.

 

[PhillipM]

Glad to hear you are well enough paid to be able to afford £300-400 for a new wheel, and have no need to opt for a repair which is often the only option for anyone less well off.

The old adage about buying things you can't afford to maintain comes to mind.

To be honest, I'm with Al here, if I cracked an alloy and couldn't afford to replace it, I'd stick a steel wheel on.

Or hit ebay for a used one

 

[TechnicAl]

Thats Rotherham for you

mean as f**k

 

[J_K]

Interesting to see I've stirred up a bit of a Hornets nest here.

The wheels are 15 years old and no longer in production.
They fetch £500-£800 a set when in mint condition. Due to the above..
Singles just don't come up. Ever.

I use them for drifting on. As such, I'm never going particularly fast and blow outs are a VERY common occurence.
My car NEVER gets used on the road even though it is MOT'd. I've got a comfortable car with an interior for that.

I'll have a go at repairing the wheel myself and use the set myself.



Just for the record, I was part of the drift demo at castle combe for the RS owners club day on saturday and had a small "incident" with a tyre wall after running out of talent.
So I understand motorsport can be dangerous and fully understand the risks I am running.

 

[PhillipM]

^^In your case I'd do it, just not for a road going car, too many other people to think about.

 

[Shox Dr]

In the British SuperBike series either early this year or late last, a competitor was exiting a corner when his rear wheel (single sided) failed, it had been involved in a crash in another race, and reused.

It was commented on in a later race that teams were no longer going to use wheels from bikes that had been crashed.

With the money those boys have at there disposal if they can't repair them....

 

[Engineer]

There seem to be an awful lot of experts on wheel repair posting on this thread! As it seems the expert consensus is that alloy wheels cannot be safely repaired, it would probably be a good idea to inform all of the insurance companies who are paying to have accident damaged wheels repaired, of the fact that this practice simply isnt safe?

 

[Shox Dr]

One of them seems to be yourself Engineer? I haven't read any of your posts to suggest you know any better than the rest! Why don't you tell us all how it's done, instead of pontificating

 

[malcolm]

There seem to be an awful lot of experts on wheel repair posting on this thread!

On this forum the form is not to go around insulting other members just because you don't agree with them. Please stop it.

 

[KennyC]

In the British SuperBike series either early this year or late last, a competitor was exiting a corner when his rear wheel (single sided) failed, it had been involved in a crash in another race, and reused.

It was commented on in a later race that teams were no longer going to use wheels from bikes that had been crashed.

With the money those boys have at there disposal if they can't repair them....

Superbike teams change their wheels regularly to avoid wheels snapping from fatigue. Comparing a (unrepaired) damaged race wheel to a repaired road wheel is harldy a valid comaprison no matter how you look at it.

 

[Shox Dr]

What I was trying to convey was, if a Super bike team, with all the facilities they have access to don't find a crack. How is a person with less access to facilities/knowledge know if a wheel is suitable for continued use

 

[paul_f]

Just for some information about wheel reconditioners.
I had to take a 19" Porsche 998 turbo wheel for a friend to Lepsons as it had been curbed.
When I took it in they noticed the paint was cracked and they were concerned it was cracked which would mean they could not repair it.
They tested it in 5 minutes whilst I waited and said it was just the paint that had cracked so it was repairable. However they welded the damage on the perimeter of the wheel (well at least it was on the invoice, and seeing the damage before it had to be welded)

 

[hotrodder]

All the waffle from wheel manufacturers and those selling new wheels is all very commendable, but bears little or no relationship to the real world.

This being the case I wonder if you would like to advise why insurance companies are paying to have damaged wheels repaired in relation to accident repair work being carried out by highly professional BS approved crash repair businesses?

I don't expect an answer as you've failed to provide an answer to TechnicAl's question and now decided that the manufacurers "waffle" instead of telling us about all these cast wheels that are not heat treated as you claimed but what the hell...

Yep insurance companies will pay to have a wheel refurbished rather than replace. Personally i'm only aware of build up work for scuffs/surface damage, never heard of one paying to have a broken wheel repaired not that it means much as i'm one bloke with a handful of clients in the motor trade. Feel free to correct me but remember we want FACTS backed up with EVIDENCE as there's too many "EXPERTS" around. If there's a wheel specific BS standard for this sort of thing then i'm all ears (seriously, i would love to know)- where have they drawn the line... deep kerbing = OK repair, what about cracks? Limited to certain sections of the rim only or is it a free for all as long as someone has paid for a training course to get their BS certificate? If one has this certificate does it allow access to procedures and methods of repair? You know, the sort of thing that car manufacturers provide covering methods for the various different fancy steels used these days

Insurance companies care about one thing only. Money. Ignoring the fact that (in the UK at least) motor vehicle insurance is a loss making nuisance to them they don't give a damn about safety or engineering only what the numbers suggest is the least likely to cost them or will cost them the least in the longterm... think along the same lines as that Ford Pinto expolding fuel tank controversy

This is pretty much my view on things. I know less than nothing about aluminium casting/ welding but I had a bike wheel repaired becuse £40 was a lot easier to swallow than £300+ and it has survived a good 15k miles on the road. The repair was filling a little nick rather than a crack but it's the HAZ that causes problems (I think).

I don't think anyone will change the other persons view i this discussion, some people think nothing of taking risks and others have a business to look after....

Very true. There's a pretty big difference between a little build up work for scars that are too deep to be 'lost' during refurbishment and a cracked wheel. The outer lip is under relatively little stress and the heat input needed to build up a low spot is relatively small- done right (and it's pretty hard to do it wrong) you could touch the wheel (next to the weld) pretty much immediately without burning yourself.

Superbike teams change their wheels regularly to avoid wheels snapping from fatigue. Comparing a (unrepaired) damaged race wheel to a repaired road wheel is harldy a valid comaprison no matter how you look at it.

Fatigue is fatigue- size/magnitude of forces and number of cycles/time. Cornering forces and speeds are going to be higher on a track but on the other hand race tracks are generally nice smooth places unlike public roads which are currently more potholed than the average dirt track. Racing generally = lower mileages between servicing/inspection whereas for many the only time their road car gets looked at is when there's no choice i.e. MOT due or it broke

ETA

Do normal road car alloy wheels break regularly?

Some do... http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/2009/10/bmw_alloy_wheels.html and it seems to be coming a more common occurance, potholes are getting bigger while tyres are becoming ever more 'rubber band' like in the quest to have bigger wheels than the neighbours

 

[TechnicAl]

Some do... http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/2009/10/bmw_alloy_wheels.html and it seems to be coming a more common occurance, potholes are getting bigger while tyres are becoming ever more 'rubber band' like in the quest to have bigger wheels than the neighbours[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that hotrodder..........I just bought a BMW

Fortunately its only got 17" rims and run flat tyres

 

[J_K]

I have had 3 of the wheels on my BMW 530D touring repaired due to buckles.
I was told that 2 of them needed cracks welding.

This was before I had a tig set and the job was done for free through a local tyre place so I thought no more of it.

I haven't had any trouble from the wheels. And I've done about 11,000 miles since the rrepair. About 4000 of which was towing the drift car around.
And 2 of the wheels need straightening again.
Same road, different potholes