Electric cars and the grid..... it has begun.

[fizzy]

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It's a few years old but if you look up from 1990 you can see gas growing rapidly and coal falling off, well before renewables were even on the radar. The past 10 years or so marked the start of renewables and has seen off the last of the coal, I'd expect as more renewables (Including new nuclear) come online the gas will start dropping off.

I am not disputing that.
Gas is the cleanest fossil fuel and much better than burning oil or coal. Also puts out less CO2.
It has only gone so expensive because of the war in Ukraine. It didn't help either that the eco mentalists stopped all fracking and new gas exploration in the North Sea!
But it was a big mistake to become reliant on something that we import so much of. You would think the oil crisis would have taught us a lesson there.
However gas IS still a fossil fuel and puts out CO2. We should be weaning ourselves off it anyway.

 

[minimutly]

Solar production is an estimate, based on assumptions. It's probably higher than reported

Since the majority of solar is still domestic ( Just guessing here -is it?), and the export is not recorded, as well as behind the meter solar, @Kayos is probably more right than you would think here. True, night is zero, and will be always, and winter is coming, but then wind is quiet today and will pick up substantially over the next weeks and months.
IOW quoting daily figures can be meaningless, for both sides of the argument.

 

[daleyd]

I am not disputing that.
Gas is the cleanest fossil fuel and much better than burning oil or coal. Also puts out less CO2.
It has only gone so expensive because of the war in Ukraine. It didn't help either that the eco mentalists stopped all fracking and new gas exploration in the North Sea!
But it was a big mistake to become reliant on something that we import so much of. You would think the oil crisis would have taught us a lesson there.
However gas IS still a fossil fuel and puts out CO2. We should be weaning ourselves off it anyway.

But you do seem to use every opportunity to blame renewables for the rise of gas, when truth be told we were reliant on gas long before they even became a thing.

If anything renewables have probably reduced the impact of rising gas prices , as unpalatable as that might seem to you...(Actually the gas price linked to electric price is whole other argument which is way more complicated than simple unit prices)

 

[fizzy]

Since the majority of solar is still domestic ( Just guessing here -is it?), and the export is not recorded, as well as behind the meter solar, @Kayos is probably more right than you would think here. True, night is zero, and will be always, and winter is coming, but then wind is quiet today and will pick up substantially over the next weeks and months.
IOW quoting daily figures can be meaningless, for both sides of the argument.

I agree there.
The Guardian are very fond of quoting that Britain gets over 50% of it's power from wind. But that is only on certain days. Look at the overall picture and we still get far too much of our electricity from gas.
If all this renewable stuff was so fantastic why are we now paying over 50p per kw/h for electricity?
If we were all paying 10p per kw/h I wouldn't have spent the last few stupidly hot days getting sunstroke cutting up pallet wood
Oil is expensive enough now. Germany and many other countries are switching from gas to oil - any prizes for guessing what that will do to the price of oil over the winter?
Unless someone bumps off Putin of course

 

[daleyd]

I agree there.
The Guardian are very fond of quoting that Britain gets over 50% of it's power from wind. But that is only on certain days. Look at the overall picture and we still get far too much of our electricity from gas.
If all this renewable stuff was so fantastic why are we now paying over 50p per kw/h for electricity?
If we were all paying 10p per kw/h I wouldn't have spent the last few stupidly hot days getting sunstroke cutting up pallet wood
Oil is expensive enough now. Germany and many other countries are switching from gas to oil - any prizes for guessing what that will do to the price of oil over the winter?
Unless someone bumps off Putin of course

Because it's (Almost always) the gas price that sets the electricity price. We should also be buying it cheaper from nuclear stations, right? Well, no we will pay the same as gas generated electricity - because the gas price almost always sets the electricity price as it's the last thing needed to balance the grid then that's the price we pay for electricity, whether it comes from gas, nuclear or renewables.

So to simply say it's renewables that are pushing the price up shows a misunderstanding of how the energy market works...

That's a failing of the energy market rather than renewables, nuclear or indeed gas. It's just the way it is, and not only for us it's exactly the same in Europe.

 

[fizzy]

Because it's (Almost always) the gas price that sets the electricity price. We should also be buying it cheaper from nuclear stations, right? Well, no we will pay the same as gas generated electricity - because the gas price almost always sets the electricity price as it's the last thing needed to balance the grid then that's the price we pay for electricity, whether it comes from gas, nuclear or renewables.

So to simply say it's renewables that are pushing the price up shows a misunderstanding of how the energy market works...

That's a failing of the energy market rather than renewables, nuclear or indeed gas. It's just the way it is, and not only for us it's exactly the same in Europe.

I agree there. Wind is being paid the same as gas which is mental. AND they are getting an extra 5p per kw/h subsidy - as is solar.
But that is the kind of stupid contracts various governments signed us up to
Putin has pushed the price up now - but if we had loads of nuclear and no gas this wouldn't have happened.

 

[daleyd]

I agree there. Wind is being paid the same as gas which is mental. AND they are getting an extra 5p per kw/h subsidy - as is solar.
But that is the kind of stupid contracts various governments signed us up to
Putin has pushed the price up now - but if we had loads of nuclear and no gas this wouldn't have happened.

I'm really not sure what part of "gas sets the price" you don't understand. Even if we had 50% nuclear (Ambitious, and unlikely to ever happen) we would still be paying "gas" prices for all this energy.

In your Jetsons utopia of 100% nuclear of course we wouldn't but back on planet earth this is what we have to deal with.

 

[cheb]

I agree there.
The Guardian are very fond of quoting that Britain gets over 50% of it's power from wind. But that is only on certain days. Look at the overall picture and we still get far too much of our electricity from gas.
If all this renewable stuff was so fantastic why are we now paying over 50p per kw/h for electricity?
If we were all paying 10p per kw/h I wouldn't have spent the last few stupidly hot days getting sunstroke cutting up pallet wood
Oil is expensive enough now. Germany and many other countries are switching from gas to oil - any prizes for guessing what that will do to the price of oil over the winter?
Unless someone bumps off Putin of course

Do it at night when it's cooler.

And did you really get sunstroke, or were you just a bit warm?

 

[fizzy]

Do it at night when it's cooler.

And did you really get sunstroke, or were you just a bit warm?

I was quite ill for a few hours afterwards. 32C in baking sun on white concrete.
Not nice at all.
The 2nd weekend of it I manged to get everything into the shade. Still 30C but no direct sun.
Trouble is in Wales you have very few chances when it isn't raining all the time. The following weekend it was heavy rain.

 

[fizzy]

I'm really not sure what part of "gas sets the price" you don't understand. Even if we had 50% nuclear (Ambitious, and unlikely to ever happen) we would still be paying "gas" prices for all this energy.

In your Jetsons utopia of 100% nuclear of course we wouldn't but back on planet earth this is what we have to deal with.

The French don't - they invested very heavily in Nuclear after the 70s oil crises. In 1974 they announced the Messmer plan - to ramp up nuclear generation. The first reactor came online in 1979 - during the next 8 years they built 15 reactors - 13.5GW/H. Within 15 years they had another 42 new reactors up and running. These days it would take that long just to get planning permission
Sadly the French forgot their history - the last Government started turning against nuclear. They were planning loads of reactor closures so cut back on improvements - that along with Covid means quite a few reactors now need more work than they would have if overhauls had taken place.
The French have suddenly woken up again to energy security though. Now they are back full on nuclear again.

 

[daleyd]

The French don't - they invested very heavily in Nuclear after the 70s oil crises. In 1974 they announced the Messmer plan - to ramp up nuclear generation. The first reactor came online in 1979 - during the next 8 years they built 15 reactors - 13.5GW/H. Within 15 years they had another 42 new reactors up and running. These days it would take that long just to get planning permission
Sadly the French forgot their history - the last Government started turning against nuclear. They were planning loads of reactor closures so cut back on improvements - that along with Covid means quite a few reactors now need more work than they would have if overhauls had taken place.
The French have suddenly woken up again to energy security though. Now they are back full on nuclear again.

This is because they have forced EDF (nationalised in all but name)to underwrite the increases. They will be paying, just not directly through bills (yet). It has very little to do with their nuclear policy....snippet below from their energy minister showing how much they are stumping up

To this must be added the capping of electricity prices and the “inflation allowance”, which bring the total bill to more than €20 billion for “the sole protection of our citizens against soaring energy prices”, Le Maire added.

 

[julianthegypsy]

Today gas is producing 52% of Britain's electric.
Wind 2%
Nuclear only 13.85% - let all our capacity go.
Solar not bad at 13.5% but it will be zero tonight of course.
Gas is currently at a price of approx $400 barrel oil equivalent.

Electric is now around 52p per kw/h. Of course the government will support low income families etc but what about business? How will they cope?
Imagine the cost of running plasma cutters/laser cutters. Or even worse water jet cutters. Some of those are using 100kw/h.

I run a plasma cutter and a welder and sub out a lot of laser cutting. I have no idea how I'll cope and nor does anyone else who isn't burying their head in the sand.

 

[fizzy]

I run a plasma cutter and a welder and sub out a lot of laser cutting. I have no idea how I'll cope and nor does anyone else who isn't burying their head in the sand.

Exactly.
As my brother always says -businesses don't vote.
The Government will fiddle and fudge things to help the voters but business users will be the ones getting hit the hardest.
Imagine hotels and restaurants etc. How will they cope?
Never mind people running big induction furnaces etc.
Britain lost it's biggest aluminium producer years ago when the Wylfa nuclear powerstation had to close.
A lot of companies will have to shut down they will have no other option.

 

[fizzy]

This is because they have forced EDF (nationalised in all but name)to underwrite the increases. They will be paying, just not directly through bills (yet). It has very little to do with their nuclear policy....snippet below from their energy minister showing how much they are stumping up

To this must be added the capping of electricity prices and the “inflation allowance”, which bring the total bill to more than €20 billion for “the sole protection of our citizens against soaring energy prices”, Le Maire added.

They can afford to do it much easier as they use nuclear power. We are paying through the nose for gas they aren't!

 

[daleyd]

They can afford to do it much easier as they use nuclear power. We are paying through the nose for gas they aren't!

I really despair - it’s not to do with “how much gas we use” it’s simply because gas sets the price - for everything. They pay the same as us (or rather the European energy market), it’s just they have made a conscious decision to underwrite the rise.

 

[fizzy]

I really despair - it’s not to do with “how much gas we use” it’s simply because gas sets the price - for everything. They pay the same as us (or rather the European energy market), it’s just they have made a conscious decision to underwrite the rise.

French nuclear powerstations cost the same to run no matter what price gas is. They are not underwriting the rise but foregoing the extra profits.
Britain buys gas on the World markets hence the huge price.
If we had massive amounts of nuclear we could afford to do the same.

 

[daleyd]

French nuclear powerstations cost the same to run no matter what price gas is. They are not underwriting the rise but foregoing the extra profits.
Britain buys gas on the World markets hence the huge price.
If we had massive amounts of nuclear we could afford to do the same.

Ok I’ll try again - the french have to sell electricity on the European market at the current market rate. This rate is set by the highest utility - which is gas.

So yes the nuclear plants cost the same as always to run (as do our nuclear plants and as do renewables buy you seem to be very bothered by wind farms getting the same, whereas it doesn’t seem to bother you that nuclear is getting the same ) but the selling price for the electricity is higher. The difference is the french government are underwriting the difference.

 

[fizzy]

Ok I’ll try again - the french have to sell electricity on the European market at the current market rate. This rate is set by the highest utility - which is gas.

So yes the nuclear plants cost the same as always to run (as do our nuclear plants and as do renewables buy you seem to be very bothered by wind farms getting the same, whereas it doesn’t seem to bother you that nuclear is getting the same ) but the selling price for the electricity is higher. The difference is the french government are underwriting the difference.

I fully understand how this works. And I also don't agree with nuclear getting more than the usual rate.
How are the French underwriting the difference?
They get most of their power from nuclear. EDF is state run. So basically all they are doing is reducing the profit they could be making. EDF is getting the money not some Arab selling the gas!

 

[Morrisman]

Exactly.
As my brother always says -businesses don't vote.
The Government will fiddle and fudge things to help the voters but business users will be the ones getting hit the hardest.
Imagine hotels and restaurants etc. How will they cope?
Never mind people running big induction furnaces etc.
Britain lost it's biggest aluminium producer years ago when the Wylfa nuclear powerstation had to close.
A lot of companies will have to shut down they will have no other option.

My daughter is looking for a flat, or a room to rent, for her next year at uni. Most places now advertise the price 'plus bills', when not long ago bills were always included. I've told her that the bills could be the more substantial part of the renting cost in the coming months.

My own electric bill is circa £50 a month, So I guess that will be £100 by January.

I could always rent a room to my daughter, win/win......

 

[daleyd]

I fully understand how this works. And I also don't agree with nuclear getting more than the usual rate.
How are the French underwriting the difference?
They get most of their power from nuclear. EDF is state run. So basically all they are doing is reducing the profit they could be making. EDF is getting the money not some Arab selling the gas!

You might want to give the french energy minister a ring and let him know he doesn’t need to dip his hand in his pocket then..