hidden terms?jasic?

[Wedg1e]

Hmmm, with a breadth of electronics, electrical and mechanical maintenance, diagnosis and repair, would I qualify as a 'suitably competent person' in the meaning of these warranties? I bet £125,000 x-ray systems are a sight more complex than any welding equipment...

 

[Richard.]

Interesting: I've been an industrial x-ray systems tech for over 20 years and their water coolers are nigh-on identical to those I've worked on from welding sets... every x-ray system maker going INSISTS you fill the cooling system with car antifreeze (Comet of Switzerland even go as far as telling you the VW part number they recommend).
As the coolant acts as an anti-corrosive as well as antifreeze, what's the issue with the welding set coolers?

I'm not 100% sure what it does to the coolers but it is fact that manufacturers will void the warranty if the correct solution isn't used. What I do know is it will eventually shag the torch. Antifreeze does act as a leak seal too which over time can block the tiny water ways in your torch and prevent circulation causing it to overheat.

 

[Richard.]

Hmmm, with a breadth of electronics, electrical and mechanical maintenance, diagnosis and repair, would I qualify as a 'suitably competent person' in the meaning of these warranties? I bet £125,000 x-ray systems are a sight more complex than any welding equipment...

I don't make the warranty rules up mate. But (depending on pump type of course) if that blockage in a tig torch caused the pump to be put under pressure and fail surely that's a cooler failure due to the wrong solution been used?? I'm sure lots of people will now pipe up saying they use antifreeze problem free but manufacturers advise against it.

 

[Wedg1e]

I'm not 100% sure what it does to the coolers but it is fact that manufacturers will void the warranty if the correct solution isn't used. What I do know is it will eventually shag the torch. Antifreeze does act as a leak seal too which over time can block the tiny water ways in your torch and prevent circulation causing it to overheat.

I see what you're saying but in a properly-designed system there should be a flow switch that would prevent the welder starting (or x-rays being generated in my comparison) unless adequate flow is present. I would be supremely surprised if high-end welders didn't include that provision.
And ref your following post, sliding vane pumps usually have a bypass so that a blockage up the line would cause the coolant to recirculate, otherwise the graphite vanes would be shot to hell in seconds.
Not arguing with you, just the principle. I'd like to know just what they expect you to use? Ginger beer? H2SO4? Simian semen?

 

[Wedg1e]

I've never known (or thought of) antifreeze to have any leak sealing properties at all, in fact pretty much opposite in that it 'seeks' leaks.

Kind of part of the justification for the plethora of sealants available (k-seal, bars leak, etc.)

Using the 'wrong' type can cause some issues especially with dissimilar metals though.

What we find in x-ray coolers is that if you don't put antifreeze in, you get algae (? It's green and slimey, whatever it is) forming which can bung up small-bore orifices (orificii?). Usually there's brass, steel, copper, rubber and aluminium which must be pretty similar to car engines (not so much brass these days maybe).

 

[doubleboost]

Some of the cheap makes of antifreeze are really horrible
I have seen it cause leaks in car systems
I use a top grade antifreeze in mine with no problems at all
It would freeze in my shop without it

 

[Richard.]

I've never known (or thought of) antifreeze to have any leak sealing properties at all, in fact pretty much opposite in that it 'seeks' leaks.

Kind of part of the justification for the plethora of sealants available (k-seal, bars leak, etc.)

Using the 'wrong' type can cause some issues especially with dissimilar metals though.

What ever it does do it's well known for blocking torches. depending on the mix ratio It will likely do this before it starts reacting with your copper and Alu.

 

[Richard.]

I can't say I see how it blocks them, but I also certainly can't and won't argue that point... I've never stuck automotive antifreeze through a torch

Over time strong mixes block up wc torches. Some antifreezes do contain or claim to help seal small leaks. They can create gunk In the tank if the system is sat idle for a while. I'm not sure how much truth is in this but ive also just read that it is conductive and can cause hf leaks. (Never heard of that before mind) but I have heard of them blocking torches.
Wedge rotory vane pumps like procon or rotoflow will like you say cope with a block by the bypass but a long period of time doing this can still reck the vanes.

 

[hotrodder]

Compare the msds for a 'proper' welding coolant with various flavours of automotive coolant and the differences are pretty obvious.

Binzel btc-15 for example is 2.5 - 10% ethylene glycol, 10 - 12.5% isopropyl alcohol and the rest isn't nasty enough to need mentioning, almost certainly just deionised water http://www.binzel-abicor.com/upload...5_Special_coolant/EN_D0006242_MSDS_BTC_15.pdf

Automotive coolants are often sold as concentrate. Mix that with tap water and the result is gonna have waaaaaaaay higher conductivity which is potentially an issue with welders. Especially TIGs with HF...

While mixing automotive stuff with deionised water should fix the conductivity thing there are loads of different flavours of the stuff which use different corrosion inhibitors. MSDS for the Glysantin G48 that my daily driver takes which is a HOAT type with silicates http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/d...i-01-en-GLYSANTIN_PROTECT_PLUS_BASF_1_5_L.PDF
2-ethylhexanoic acid (2-EHA) is one of the corrosion inhibitors in it (along with several other OAT flavours of coolant). It's the same stuff that's responsible for a load of lawsuits in the US when Dexcool antifreeze ate intake manifold gaskets because ethylhexanoic acid is a known plasticiser that's incompatible with some flavours of nylon and (owners of spendy TIG torches take note) silicone rubber* according to the internet. It's also one of several reasons why you shouldn't buy antifreeze for your car based on its colour or switch from an 'approved' flavour to something with a longer service life without doing a bit of research

Silicates (like phosphates, borates etc) are one of the 'old fashioned' IAT corrosion inhibitors which work by foriming a passive coating on surfaces. They're great if you have an MB or BMW or something else with a cam chain so the waterpump isn't a service item that's replaced with the belt every few years. No so great in a welding torch, especially if mixed 50% like you would for a car engine, as they can drop out of suspension and silt things up which is part of the reason why the old IAT coolants and the HOAT stuff in my daily need changing every couple of years

 

[Richard.]

Compare the msds for a 'proper' welding coolant with various flavours of automotive coolant and the differences are pretty obvious.

Binzel btc-15 for example is 2.5 - 10% ethylene glycol, 10 - 12.5% isopropyl alcohol and the rest isn't nasty enough to need mentioning, almost certainly just deionised water http://www.binzel-abicor.com/upload...5_Special_coolant/EN_D0006242_MSDS_BTC_15.pdf

Automotive coolants are often sold as concentrate. Mix that with tap water and the result is gonna have waaaaaaaay higher conductivity which is potentially an issue with welders. Especially TIGs with HF...

While mixing automotive stuff with deionised water should fix the conductivity thing there are loads of different flavours of the stuff which use different corrosion inhibitors. MSDS for the Glysantin G48 that my daily driver takes which is a HOAT type with silicates http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/d...i-01-en-GLYSANTIN_PROTECT_PLUS_BASF_1_5_L.PDF
2-ethylhexanoic acid (2-EHA) is one of the corrosion inhibitors in it (along with several other OAT flavours of coolant). It's the same stuff that's responsible for a load of lawsuits in the US when Dexcool antifreeze ate intake manifold gaskets because ethylhexanoic acid is a known plasticiser that's incompatible with some flavours of nylon and (owners of spendy TIG torches take note) silicone rubber* according to the internet. It's also one of several reasons why you shouldn't buy antifreeze for your car based on its colour or switch from an 'approved' flavour to something with a longer service life without doing a bit of research

Silicates (like phosphates, borates etc) are one of the 'old fashioned' IAT corrosion inhibitors which work by foriming a passive coating on surfaces. They're great if you have an MB or BMW or something else with a cam chain so the waterpump isn't a service item that's replaced with the belt every few years. No so great in a welding torch, especially if mixed 50% like you would for a car engine, as they can drop out of suspension and silt things up which is part of the reason why the old IAT coolants and the HOAT stuff in my daily need changing every couple of years

I'll be totally honest I understood very little of that but I got the gist and it backs up my posts that antifreeze in a welding coolant system does void warranty and after reading the above I can see its for good reason.

 

[dannyp]

been running vw G12 and g13 without problems through MB 501 torch. i know you shouldn't do it but it's better than plain water espectaly when it chould freeze it just never got swaped back out.

 

[Chris Stevens]

Get the feeling that distilled water is probably a better bet than car antifreeze, if you dont want to use proper welding coolant? Not been cold enough to freeze water inside my workshop for many years.

 

[Richard.]

Get the feeling that distilled water is probably a better bet than car antifreeze, if you dont want to use proper welding coolant? Not been cold enough to freeze water inside my workshop for many years.

I would say so. Tap water just causes no end of trouble if used long term. I use the correct stuff in mine simply because I change it once in a blue moon and a ten Ltr drum at 30-40 quid is probably gonna last me many years as the cooler only holds 3 Lt. It's very cheap when looked at like this and a new ck 20 would cost a whole lot more if I recked it. I know people who use automotive coolant and claim to of never had issues. Most mix with tap water again they say it's fine but I've heard horror story's too and if it's suggested to use the proper gear then I'll do it knowing I'm doing it right.

 

[Chris Stevens]

Not had any water freeze inside my workshop for ten years or more, so there is no need for anti freeze. Distilled water changed every year works fine for me. Tap water not a good idea, as loads of impurities in it, and can cause all sorts of issues, which bearing in mind the low cost of distilled simply arent worth risking.

 

[Jim Davey]

Deionised water and alcohol is what most recommend, the alcohol reduces the freezing point and keeps bacterial and mould growth down and it's safe with most torch hoses and pump seals.

 

[Wedg1e]

Compare the msds for a 'proper' welding coolant with various flavours of automotive coolant and the differences are pretty obvious.

Binzel btc-15 for example is 2.5 - 10% ethylene glycol, 10 - 12.5% isopropyl alcohol and the rest isn't nasty enough to need mentioning, almost certainly just deionised water http://www.binzel-abicor.com/upload...5_Special_coolant/EN_D0006242_MSDS_BTC_15.pdf

Automotive coolants are often sold as concentrate. Mix that with tap water and the result is gonna have waaaaaaaay higher conductivity which is potentially an issue with welders. Especially TIGs with HF...

While mixing automotive stuff with deionised water should fix the conductivity thing there are loads of different flavours of the stuff which use different corrosion inhibitors. MSDS for the Glysantin G48 that my daily driver takes which is a HOAT type with silicates http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/d...i-01-en-GLYSANTIN_PROTECT_PLUS_BASF_1_5_L.PDF
2-ethylhexanoic acid (2-EHA) is one of the corrosion inhibitors in it (along with several other OAT flavours of coolant). It's the same stuff that's responsible for a load of lawsuits in the US when Dexcool antifreeze ate intake manifold gaskets because ethylhexanoic acid is a known plasticiser that's incompatible with some flavours of nylon and (owners of spendy TIG torches take note) silicone rubber* according to the internet. It's also one of several reasons why you shouldn't buy antifreeze for your car based on its colour or switch from an 'approved' flavour to something with a longer service life without doing a bit of research

Silicates (like phosphates, borates etc) are one of the 'old fashioned' IAT corrosion inhibitors which work by foriming a passive coating on surfaces. They're great if you have an MB or BMW or something else with a cam chain so the waterpump isn't a service item that's replaced with the belt every few years. No so great in a welding torch, especially if mixed 50% like you would for a car engine, as they can drop out of suspension and silt things up which is part of the reason why the old IAT coolants and the HOAT stuff in my daily need changing every couple of years

Useful to know, thanks

 

[dannyp]

i recon some of the proper fandango coolant for some machenes may be the same as that evans waterless coolant....... one welder rather expensive welder i use occasionaly uses it, but the proper stuff is about the same price so dont take the chance on that one, especaly as it's cooling the power source itself as well

 

[CornishPete]

It's a pretty mega warranty, it's covered even if it's used 24hrs a day 7 days a week! You do have to have it tested every 12 months though for it to be valid. What is involved in the testing and how much would this likely cost?

I charge £15 + VAT for the test, I won't bore you with the details but it's effectively a thorough electrical safety inspection and a clean.

if you search for 'steal or swindle' thread there's a bit on ewm warranty.
seems entirely reasonable to me, keeps warranty intact and gives the machine a once over too so well worth it imo

 

[Jim Davey]

It's a complicated machine that in industrial use can be subject to some pretty harsh use. We could build the warranty servicing into the price of the set, and be dearer than those who don't, or you tell people there is an optional extended warranty if they want to pay for servicing. Or like some dealers, you just tell the client the unit carries a 12 month warranty. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
It's entirely up to the customer at the end of the day, is say less than 20% of clients go for the after sales warranty servicing which is good and bad news for me.
Less revenue initially from service work but if the unit fails outside of warranty I can legitimately charge for labour then as I am obliged to provide it for free under warranty. It ninevitably costs more than the warranty service as it takes longer to fix than maintain a machine.

 

[Bill Edwards]

It's entirely up to the customer at the end of the day, is say less than 20% of clients go for the after sales warranty servicing which is good and bad news for me.
Less revenue initially from service work but if the unit fails outside of warranty I can legitimately charge for labour then as I am obliged to provide it for free under warranty. It ninevitably costs more than the warranty service as it takes longer to fix than maintain a machine.

When you look at the overall numbers does it work out cheaper to buy a warranty and of course pay for services or to just take it as the standard 12 months and hope it doesn't break?
I realise there's a lot of luck involved but when looking at a lot of units I wonder where it works out. I tend to take the view (in general, not particularly welding machines) that extended warranties obviously provide a useful safety net but if you are dealing with a lot of units then overall it's more likely to benefit the seller as there can be a lot of equipment which gets years of hard use and never gets touched.