Jones & Shipman 540 Surface Grinder

[Brad93]

I hate you
Now I will have to give mine some TLC
Seriously though brilliant write up. I collected a very very nice JS540 about 6 months ago. It is the 540P with the powered rise and fall head. Really good condition and got it at a brilliant price. Took about 15 hours to go and get it - load and return though - rather knackered at the end of it.
There is one problem with mine - table moves to the right fine but then won't return - it does sometimes but not always.
If I push down on the little trip lever thing it then returns the other way - possibly a stuck valve or spring?
Anyone got any ideas?

Thats possibly the table going back to park position.

either that or you've got a bend in your ram

 

[Smouser]

I found some ISO 32 oil which I think is a real bargain.

It is currently on offer at eBay from Carousel_Car_Parts at just £28.88 for 20L delivered if you use the offer code "JANJOY15".
At that price, it must be worth a punt. Even if just ends up being the oil to run initially to 'clear out' the system/pipes etc.

 

[Brad93]

I found some ISO 32 oil which I think is a real bargain.

View attachment 432997

It is currently on offer at eBay from Carousel_Car_Parts at just £28.88 for 20L delivered if you use the offer code "JANJOY15".
At that price, it must be worth a punt. Even if just ends up being the oil to run initially to 'clear out' the system/pipes etc.

I would definitely lift the table before even thinking about running jt

 

[Smouser]

I had an email back from Eclipse about me asking for a quote to repair/re-magnetise my chuck.

I was pleasantly surprised that they are willing to look at it due to the age of the chuck.
However, there was no indication of the costs involved....
They asked me to fill in the form below and send the form and chuck to them if I wanted to proceed.

My chuck will probably (still to be determined) be good enough for hobby use.
If it is not, it might still be more economical to buy another used chuck at an auction compared to the repair/refurbishment costs from Eclipse.

 

[Seadog]

I'd be wary. They can't even compose a letter.

 

[Smouser]

With the weather having been cold over the last few weeks painting conditions in the garage was very poor to say the least and progress on the SG ground to a halt.

However, my wife had to go to the USA for work and that meant the kitchen could be annexed as a paint room

I found some Paragon blue hammered paint I bought a while ago in between the random paints I have in the garage.

As the SG is already painted with hammered paint I thought it would be just the thing I needed to paint the hydraulic tank.

I should have read the data sheet of the Paragon hammered paint BEFORE I painted. Then this would not have happened.

Technical note:- If you wish to use a primer this finish is only compatible with etch primer, do not use this product to overcoat on top of any Paragon primer or undercoat products other than the Paragon etch primers.

Sigh.

I can only blame myself

I started over with the painting. This time, I chose Rustoleum for the inside of the hydraulic tank as I was not sure that the hammered paint will be able to resist the hydraulic oil.

I painted some other bits too.

 

[RichardM]

She's probably reading this thread as I type!

 

[Smouser]

When the cat's away, the mice will play!

 

[6ply]

I found some ISO 32 oil which I think is a real bargain.

View attachment 432997

It is currently on offer at eBay from Carousel_Car_Parts at just £28.88 for 20L delivered if you use the offer code "JANJOY15".
At that price, it must be worth a punt. Even if just ends up being the oil to run initially to 'clear out' the system/pipes etc.

That seems cheap, but now out of stock.

I had a look at the seller's other items for sale. I note they list hydraulic oil "virgin grade". What does that mean? Never been used before or extra slippery?

ISO 32 / ISO 46 / ISO 68 / ISO 100 Hydraulic Oil Fluid Virgin Grade | eBay

Engine Oil Additives. Compressor Oil. Fluids / Oil. Chainsaw Oil. Industrial Fluids / Oil. Truck Fluids / Oil. Engine Oil. Oil Filters.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Pawcu]

Your wife is very patient with you :P
I wouldn't even dream of thinking of doing anything like that in the kitchen :P
Good progress though

 

[Smouser]

Progress has been slow and very interrupted with me poking around an hour or so after work when I got a chance.

I took @Brad93 advice and decided to take the table off the SG.

To remove the table, all you need to do is remove all the nuts/bolts shown in the photo below.
The two nuts stacked together are holding the piston ram/shaft and the other two are to remove the bracket from the table.

Repeat on the other side of the table.

I had a bit of difficulty and got very frustrated with removing the table because I removed all those bolts and nuts, but the table still seemed to be attached.
I did not want to force it for fear of causing damage as at the time I did not know if the table was still attached with something else too. However, in the end, it was just the weight of the table and the oil on the ways 'sucking' the table to the rest of the machine.

Things didn't look too bad in there. Especially not for the rough age of the machine (1960's).
I suspect the machine has been refurbished/stripped at some point, most likely when it was repainted in hammer paint at some point in its life.

You can still see some scraping/grinding marks on most of the ways, so hopefully, the machine is not too worn out.


The piston and rams removed.

Luckily, no oil holes were blocked.

It did not take long to wipe away the old grime at all.

A few closeups of the original markings on the ways.

While I had the table off, I ran the hydraulic pump to make sure oil was getting to the ways.

The oil gets pumped out of the marked holes.

At first, there was no oil but after about ~15 seconds after starting the pump, the oil started to appear.
The flow was pretty low, I expected more but I guess if there is too much oil the table will ride on the oil instead of the ways making contact with each other which will affect the accuracy of the machine.

With most lathes and milling machines, you just squirt a bit of oil in the way oiling pints and that seems to do the job just fine so a high flow rate of oil is probably not required.

 

[Smouser]

The table went back onto the machine and I took it for a test run.
The table seemed to overrun the left-hand stop and was also 'sluggish' to return as can be seen in the video below.

However, by manually moving the direction lever, the problem was not present.

I believe the issue is a combination of two parts that are worn.

The stop.

The striking arm on the lever.

The quick and dirty solution was to just space the stop bar out a little so it is closer to the lever.

I just added a washer to each spacer of the stop bar and the table operated much better.

At some point in the future, it might be worth remaking the strike arms and stops.

For now, it works ok.

 

[fizzy]

Progress has been slow and very interrupted with me poking around an hour or so after work when I got a chance.

I took @Brad93 advice and decided to take the table off the SG.

To remove the table, all you need to do is remove all the nuts/bolts shown in the photo below.
The two nuts stacked together are holding the piston ram/shaft and the other two are to remove the bracket from the table.

View attachment 436504

Repeat on the other side of the table.

I had a bit of difficulty and got very frustrated with removing the table because I removed all those bolts and nuts, but the table still seemed to be attached.
I did not want to force it for fear of causing damage as at the time I did not know if the table was still attached with something else too. However, in the end, it was just the weight of the table and the oil on the ways 'sucking' the table to the rest of the machine.

View attachment 436494

View attachment 436495

View attachment 436497

Things didn't look too bad in there. Especially not for the rough age of the machine (1960's).
I suspect the machine has been refurbished/stripped at some point, most likely when it was repainted in hammer paint at some point in its life.

You can still see some scraping/grinding marks on most of the ways, so hopefully, the machine is not too worn out.


The piston and rams removed.
View attachment 436498

Luckily, no oil holes were blocked.

It did not take long to wipe away the old grime at all.

View attachment 436499

A few closeups of the original markings on the ways.

View attachment 436500

View attachment 436501

View attachment 436502


While I had the table off, I ran the hydraulic pump to make sure oil was getting to the ways.

The oil gets pumped out of the marked holes.

View attachment 436503

At first, there was no oil but after about ~15 seconds after starting the pump, the oil started to appear.
The flow was pretty low, I expected more but I guess if there is too much oil the table will ride on the oil instead of the ways making contact with each other which will affect the accuracy of the machine.

With most lathes and milling machines, you just squirt a bit of oil in the way oiling pints and that seems to do the job just fine so a high flow rate of oil is probably not required.

I think the bed is supposed to ride on an oil film. I saw a video on Youtube of an accurate rebuilt surface grinder. Running a dial across the ways there was a difference of about a thou when under power compared to switched off. They concluded it was due to it running on the oil film.

 

[fizzy]

The table went back onto the machine and I took it for a test run.
The table seemed to overrun the left-hand stop and was also 'sluggish' to return as can be seen in the video below.

However, by manually moving the direction lever, the problem was not present.

I believe the issue is a combination of two parts that are worn.

The stop.

View attachment 436512

The striking arm on the lever.

View attachment 436515

The quick and dirty solution was to just space the stop bar out a little so it is closer to the lever.

I just added a washer to each spacer of the stop bar and the table operated much better.

View attachment 436517

At some point in the future, it might be worth remaking the strike arms and stops.

For now, it works ok.

I have a problem with that on my machine!
Mine will run fine one way but won't reverse and go the other way.
I can only get it to reverse direction by pressing down hard on the little thumb lever underneath - the one on the right hand side with a rod connected to it.
Any ideas?

 

[Smouser]

I have a problem with that on my machine!
Mine will run fine one way but won't reverse and go the other way.
I can only get it to reverse direction by pressing down hard on the little thumb lever underneath - the one on the right hand side with a rod connected to it.
Any ideas?

I have had that happen to me (after it worked perfectly before). I could also 'override' it by pressing on the thumb lever. Couldn't immediately understand what was going on.

It turned out I had the table too far 'forward' and it was hitting the 'front to back' stop.
Make 100% sure the lever is free to move and it is not hitting either of the stops.

If it is not related to that, it might be a more complicated problem with adjustments necessary to the hydraulic system/pressures or the direction lever position on the shaft.

PS. I am by no means an expert on these machines. I am still learning as I go along.

 

[nickk]

Nice investigation work ,great dedication and saving some of the best of British.
Those machines were my introduction to precision grinding and before I was let loose on cylindrical work! I can claim to have done my hours on J&S grinders in the early eighties .

 

[fizzy]

Nice investigation work ,great dedication and saving some of the best of British.
Those machines were my introduction to precision grinding and before I was let loose on cylindrical work! I can claim to have done my hours on J&S grinders in the early eighties .

My oldest grinder appears to be the most accurate! A 1920s or 1930s Brown and Sharpe which the JS540 is based on. Mechanical drive. I am getting accuracy beyond what I can measure and my digital micrometer goes down to 0.0001mm

 

[Smouser]

I used to mount all my VFDs in metal electrical boxes on the wall. It kept them easily accessible and protected them from dust.

However, if I move machines around in my garage it gets pretty annoying really quick if I then need to either move the VFD to another box or move the whole box with VFD inside it.
Lately, I have been preferring to install VFDs inside the machine (if it can accommodate it).

I previously identified a space in the SG where two VFDs could possibly go but after test-running the machine I found that things were a bit 'damp'.

By looking at the photo I took, it appears that every single joint is wet and slightly seeping oil. Not a good environment for a VFD to be in.
I decided on mounting one of the previously wall-mounted boxes on the SG which will house the two VFDs.

While starting to sort the wiring for the VFDs I thought I would mention something specific I experienced only with ABB VFDs.
If I had one ABB VFD turned on everything will be fine. If I try to turn on one or more ABB VFDs the RCCB in the garage would trip.

The ABB VFDs have an EMC filter built in which interferes with the RCCB. The RCCB can 'cope' with one VFD, but not two.
You can unscrew the screw to disable the EMC filter.

I bought some filters (not sure if they are really needed or not) which work just fine with the RCCB.

By disabling the ABB's internal EMC filter and using external filters I can have multiple ABB VFDs turned on.

Anyway, as I was busy installing the VFDs in the enclosure and doing the wiring it was a good time to also rewire the spindle motor to DELTA and replace the old electrical cable with some SY cable.

I have not previously tried to run the spindle motor as I have the plain bearing spindle and the oil-level sight glass is completely empty.

You require a specific oil mixed with 10% kerosene for the spindle.
To save time, I just ordered a 1l bottle of premixed oil from eBay for £18. Getting the oil and kerosene separately is slightly cheaper, but I paid for the convenience.

The spindle motor is in the body of the machine (underneath all that dampness I previously showed) and I knew it was going to be a bit of a pain rewiring it to delta due to limited access.
I took the electrical cover off the electrical connection box on the motor and as soon as I touched the electrical wires the insulation just crumbled away

Photo I took off the motor and wiring while in situ.

I had to pull the motor to see if it could be saved.

This drawing from the parts manual shows where the motor is located.

To remove the motor, the motor's pulley needs to be removed from the rear of the machine. A screw into the motor's shaft secures the pulley and there is also a sneaky grub screw too.
Both screws came out pretty easily but I could not slide the pulley off. I used a puller to get the pulley off the motor's shaft.

The motor is only held on by 4 anti-vibration dampers which can be undone from the front of the machine with a socket and long extension bar.

While removing the pulley I could get a look at the spindle's belt. It is a leather flat belt and it looks to be in very good condition. It is definitely not the original belt.

The motor came out with the mounting plate attached.

As you can see, it is super dirty and oily.

 

[Smouser]

I removed the bearing cover and undid the 4 bolts holding the casing together and was greeted with this.

Very dirty and oily and the insulation further crumbling away.
As far as I know, this machine was running when I bought it and I guess while the insulation was left undisturbed it kept the internal wires from touching each other.

As much as I would like to clean the windings and motor it is just not worth poking a sleeping bear. Any type of degreaser or solvent might further damage the motor/winding insulation. That mess needs to be disturbed as little as possible.

I decided it was worth a try to try and save the motor by replacing all the electrical cables that normally go to the electrical terminal box.
I started stripping away some of the old bindings.

I marked all the wires up to conduct a simple check with a multimeter and to check the windings.

All readings was good with no shorts.

I got the following readings for the different windings
7.4ohm
7.5ohm
7.4ohm

All similar so likely good.

I had to replace some wires on a previous old motor before and I did not have all the 'correct' bits to do it and made do with what I had.
However, I did order some high-temperature wire and sleeving to keep in my electrical crate for future use. Today that came in handy.

I used a different colour wire for each of the windings.
I soldered the new wires onto the windings, slipped some high-temperature sleeving over the joints (it was very tight, I need to order some slightly larger diameter sleeving for future use) and also used some heat shrink to keep it all in place.

Forgot to take photos during the soldering.

To keep everything in place and secure, I used high-temperature sleeving to wrap around the windings.

I then got the motor back together.

The next steps are to re-attach the electrical terminals and to wire the motor to DELTA.
Then the motor can be bench run to see if it works, blows something up, catches on fire or trips the VFD

 

[6ply]

I removed the bearing cover and undid the 4 bolts holding the casing together and was greeted with this.

View attachment 436601

View attachment 436599

Very dirty and oily and the insulation further crumbling away.
As far as I know, this machine was running when I bought it and I guess while the insulation was left undisturbed it kept the internal wires from touching each other.

As much as I would like to clean the windings and motor it is just not worth poking a sleeping bear. Any type of degreaser or solvent might further damage the motor/winding insulation. That mess needs to be disturbed as little as possible.

I decided it was worth a try to try and save the motor by replacing all the electrical cables that normally go to the electrical terminal box.
I started stripping away some of the old bindings.

View attachment 436602



View attachment 436603

I marked all the wires up to conduct a simple check with a multimeter and to check the windings.

View attachment 436604

All readings was good with no shorts.

I got the following readings for the different windings
7.4ohm
7.5ohm
7.4ohm

All similar so likely good.

I had to replace some wires on a previous old motor before and I did not have all the 'correct' bits to do it and made do with what I had.
However, I did order some high-temperature wire and sleeving to keep in my electrical crate for future use. Today that came in handy.

View attachment 436605

I used a different colour wire for each of the windings.
I soldered the new wires onto the windings, slipped some high-temperature sleeving over the joints (it was very tight, I need to order some slightly larger diameter sleeving for future use) and also used some heat shrink to keep it all in place.

Forgot to take photos during the soldering.

To keep everything in place and secure, I used high-temperature sleeving to wrap around the windings.

View attachment 436606


View attachment 436607

I then got the motor back together.

The next steps are to re-attach the electrical terminals and to wire the motor to DELTA.
Then the motor can be bench run to see if it works, blows something up, catches on fire or trips the VFD

That looks good. I had a really filthy motor once (made yours look clean) and ending up washing it in a bucket of water. Took 2 or 3 weeks to dry out enough to pass the insulation resistance test.

I like the way you have wrapped the windings with sleeving. The last time I did a similar job I used high temperature plastic cable ties, but I think your solution is better. I also sprayed conformal coating over the whole lot to set it solid.