Jones & Shipman 540 Surface Grinder

[Agroshield]

The arbor is nothing special. You can copy the taper from the wheel flange. Mount it in a chuck and swivel the compound until it matches the inside taper.

This place says 15 dungarees:

Wheel Adapters for Jones & Shipman Grinders.

You can measure the flange taper using two balls of differing diameters and a height gauge.

Jones & Shipman 540 grinder hubs/adapters

I have one of these grinders and am confused (not a rare condition for me). I know several readers of this forum have J&S grinders so maybe one of you can un-confuse me. My grinder came with one wheel adapter. I'd like to get one or two more. Since it's a wet grinder, it is about 3" OD, with a...

www.practicalmachinist.com

WTB: some 1 1/4" wheel hubs for Jones & Shipman 540 grinder

My J&S 540 surface grinder came with four wheel hubs for 2" (50.8mm) ID grinding wheels, which seem to have been common in West Germany in the late 1980s. But these days there are a lot more grinding wheels available with 1 1/4" IDs. So I'd like to get a handful of those hubs, but would like...

www.practicalmachinist.com

European spec. ones are 15 degrees. North American ones are 3" per foot.

 

[Brad93]

Thanks @Brad93

I have zero experience with surface grinders, so every tip, possible solution, and improvement is a help.

I guess I will have to eliminate one thing at a time to determine the cause.

Is there a rough guide on how much material to remove per pass or does it vary too greatly between materials to give a 'ballpark' figure?

First, I need a pesky balancing arbor/mandrel for the wheel. They are about £125 new
Maybe I can make one but it will be hard because I don't have an existing one to copy.

I also see most wheel flanges have three weights to balance the wheel. Mine only has two

Photo of a new flange with three weights.

View attachment 476215

New ones are about £165.

The mandrels often come up at auctions mixed in with other lots.

Don't worry about two weights vs 3 weights, good quality wheels need very little balancing. You can always drill the wheel itself to balance them.

If you look up a guy called Bart Harkema on instagram you'll be able to find the fault finding he went through with his 540 which was getting the same striations as yours.

His was the motor pulley being out of true.

 

[Smouser]

Thanks both.

@Agroshield I will probably try to make one with the idea you suggested.

@Brad93 I did watch some of his videos a year or or so ago. I will revisit them.

For anybody interested, here is Bart's first video of his J&S 540.

 

[Agroshield]

If I were to make one, I would start with a nice piece of ground bar (maybe a shock absorber shaft), loctite a larger lump of steel roughly in the middle of it and then turn to 15 degrees.

Would you need to balance the arbor on a wheel balancing arbor balancer?

 

[RobCox]

Would you need to balance the arbor on a wheel balancing arbor balancer?

I guess not. Because the arbor is all close to the axis of rotation, the torque any imbalance in the arbor will generate should be dwarfed by any imbalance in the wheel.

 

[Smouser]

Finished a dust extractor chute for the SG today as the original was missing.

It got old very fast holding a vacuum hose while the SG was running.

The original ones look something like this.

I made my version out of box section. The box section was actually part of my engine crane's boom which I upgraded to thicker steel.

The pipe was a piece of scaffold pipe. I turned the OD and ID down a little on the lathe. The outside was turned down to get rid of the galvanising and the inside so a vacuum hose can fit into it.

I made four corner cuts in the box section and used a hammer to beat the box section around the pipe.

A bit of welding and a bit of grinding and here is the result.

I then made a bracket so it can be held on the machine.

Here it is fitted.

I need to experiment a little bit to see if the 90 degree bend is going to be a problem. If it is, I will add an angle plate on the inside or just cut the corner off and weld a flat piece of steel to cover the hole.

Once I am happy, I will give it a quick spray can spray job to prevent rust.

 

[6ply]

Finished a dust extractor chute for the SG today as the original was missing.

It gold old very fast holding a vacuum hose while the SG was running.

The original ones look something like this.

View attachment 476493

I made my version out of box section. The box section was actually part of my engine crane's boom which I upgraded to thicker steel.

The pipe was a piece of scaffold pipe. I turned the OD and ID down a little on the lathe. The outside was turned down to get rid of the galvanising and the inside so a vacuum hose can fit into it.

I made four corner cuts in the box section and used a hammer to beat the box section around the pipe.

A bit of welding and a bit of grinding and here is the result.

View attachment 476494

View attachment 476495

View attachment 476496

I then made a bracket so it can be held on the machine.

View attachment 476497

View attachment 476498

Here it is fitted.

View attachment 476499

I need to experiment a little bit to see if the 90 degree bend is going to be a problem. If it is, I will add an angle plate on the inside or just cut the corner off and weld a flat piece of steel to cover the hole.

Once I am happy, I will give it a quick spray can spray job to prevent rust.

That looks very nice. Out of interest, does this go straight to your vacuum? I'm a bit concerned about doing that with my numatic due to the fire risk. I discussed this with an exhaust/ventilation guy at work and he suggested making a box with metal baffles to take the heat out of the sparks, or something like that.

 

[Smouser]

That looks very nice. Out of interest, does this go straight to your vacuum? I'm a bit concerned about doing that with my numatic due to the fire risk. I discussed this with an exhaust/ventilation guy at work and he suggested making a box with metal baffles to take the heat out of the sparks, or something like that.

Thanks.

Yes, currently it goes straight to a dust extractor type vacuum. I also have another vacuum which I might use instead as it is less noisy.

I didn't consider the fire risk. Worst case, I will just have to put the fire out IF it happens .

I would have thought the sparks will be out long before they reach the vacuum drum itself.

I do have a 'proper' surface grinder dust extractor, but it is in storage as I really don't have the space for it in my garage.

 

[Pete.]

I burned a hole in my vacuum hose with the sparks.

 

[Smouser]

I made a little more 'progress' on the SG.

@RobCox came by a few days ago so I immediately tried to pick his brain to get the SG up and running properly.

We started off by dressing the wheel again and I found out I was taking way too little off the wheel when I was dressing it before.

The wheel just started to clean up nicely when the sound of the machine changed and there was a horrible rubbing or grinding noise. We stopped the machine and determined that the noise was not from the hydraulic motor or systems but from the wheel head/wheel head motor.

Spinning the grinding wheel by hand felt horrible and it was much tighter than it was before. I feared the worst, something failed in the plain bearing wheel head (for which you can't get parts for anymore).

Luckily @RobCox was using the machine when the noise started so I could at least blame him for breaking my SG.
It is the same principle when you go and fly a kite. Always take a helper with you to launch the kite and when things don't go to plan, blame the helper for not doing it 'correctly'.

Due to a lack of space, my SG is moved up against the wall which prevents easy access to the rear of the machine so we could not properly investigate further at the time.

I later moved the machine away from the wall to get access to the rear and both pulleys. I spun the belt by hand and determined the noise was coming from the bottom pulley area. Phew. At least the plain bearing wheel head seemed fine.

I assumed the rubber mounts of the motor failed so I proceeded to remove the motor pulley from the motor shaft. It is held on by a screw screwing into the shaft of the motor and also a grub screw on the face of the pulley.

I then realised the motor pulley moved on the shaft causing it to rub on the casting.

The pulley is supposed to sit against the centre washer.

The previous guy must have done a terrible job tightening the grub screw when the pulley was last removed.

Unfortunately, the previous guy was me

This is where the pulley rubbed on the casting.

The old grub screw was fairly short and could only be tightened with the 'long' end of an allen key, probably why it came loose as access to tighten it is severely restricted. I replaced it with a longer grub screw which also have serrated edges.

I was not taking chances, copious amounts of Loctite was also used.

Once done, I tensioned the belt. The manual was a great help to tell me exactly how tight it should be

All I had to do, was to tighten the belt to the 'correct' tension.....


I was now back at square one, trying to get a better finish on my SG.

I had the wheel off while trying to diagnose the noise so it was a good time to try and make a balancing arbor. I chucked the wheel flange up in the 4 jaw chuck to get the correct taper to make a balancing mandrel.

I then switched to the 3 jaw and placed a bit of mystery metal in there.

In hindsight, it would have been better to turn between centres.

I had a few clearance issues. Changed tools to get around the problem.

 

[Smouser]

I leveled the wheel balancing jig. Width ways, I placed the level on the jig itself. Length ways, I used a parallel from my milling machine. It was just long enough.

I had a new grinding wheel for the SG and it was the perfect time to fit it.

I dressed the wheel on the SG, balanced it, and then dressed the wheel again.

It was time to get that perfect grinding finish.

What a disappointment.
Wheel dressed and balanced but the perfect finish eludes me.

At the time, I was seriously considering throwing the SG in the scrap.

However, there are a few more things I can check and try to get a better finish when I get back from holiday.

@Pete. the vacuum hose do not have a hole burnt in it, yet!
Fingers crossed.

 

[6ply]

I was not taking chances, copious amounts of Loctite was also used.

I've no objection to the loctite, but you could also consider adding a grub screw on top of another.

 

[Brad93]

There's a reason toolmakers are toolmakers and machinists are machinists.

Grinding is a complex subject which cannot be fathomed overnight

 

[Smouser]

There's a reason toolmakers are toolmakers and machinists are machinists.

Grinding is a complex subject which cannot be fathomed overnight

Probably a very fair point!

I guess I am just frustrated because I don't know what the problem is. If I had a new machine, I would know that a poor finish is 99% operator/technique error.

With a used machine, there are just so many more variables.

When I got my first lathe, I avoided HSS and only used carbide inserts - reducing the variables of poor finishing/cutting by having a known good cutting insert and not wondering if the HSS tool has been ground/sharpened correctly.

 

[6ply]

I leveled the wheel balancing jig. Width ways, I placed the level on the jig itself. Length ways, I used a parallel from my milling machine. It was just long enough.

View attachment 477140

View attachment 477142
I had a new grinding wheel for the SG and it was the perfect time to fit it.

I dressed the wheel on the SG, balanced it, and then dressed the wheel again.

View attachment 477141

It was time to get that perfect grinding finish.

View attachment 477143

View attachment 477144

View attachment 477145

View attachment 477146

What a disappointment.
Wheel dressed and balanced but the perfect finish eludes me.

At the time, I was seriously considering throwing the SG in the scrap.

However, there are a few more things I can check and try to get a better finish when I get back from holiday.

@Pete. the vacuum hose do not have a hole burnt in it, yet!
Fingers crossed.

What are you trying to grind? Material and wheel choice have a big effect on finish.

 

[Smouser]

What are you trying to grind? Material and wheel choice have a big effect on finish.

A piece of mystery metal

I am basically trying to get the machine 'set up' to give decent surface finish.

The chuck needs grinding in after it got removed and refitted when I opened it up to re-grease it.

I see a couple of the locating pins are sitting proud of the surface too. However, I don't want to start grinding on the chuck until I have the machine working to a decent finish/standard.

I have a few different bits of metal I can try to grind when I get back from Mexico.

Maybe I am just too impatient, not having the patience to go through the learning process.

 

[6ply]

A piece of mystery metal

I guessed that might be the case.

I'm no expert, but I can say from experience you'll get a wide range of finishes depending on what you are trying to grind and the wheel you use.

I have maybe 20 or more wheels that came with my machine. White, pink, blue, etc and they all cut slightly differently.

I've had poor finish with one wheel, then swapped colour and got a mirror finish.

They say softer steels don't grind so well, and that's generally true, but I've had some good results after playing around with wheels and feed rates. I always grind dry as that's my setup.

 

[Smouser]

I guessed that might be the case.

I'm no expert, but I can say from experience you'll get a wide range of finishes depending on what you are trying to grind and the wheel you use.

I have maybe 20 or more wheels that came with my machine. White, pink, blue, etc and they all cut slightly differently.

I've had poor finish with one wheel, then swapped colour and got a mirror finish.

They say softer steels don't grind so well, and that's generally true, but I've had some good results after playing around with wheels and feed rates. I always grind dry as that's my setup.

Great. Thanks for the info.

I have a few different wheels, unfortunately, only one wheel flange.
I might try and make another one or two wheel flanges, I do have suitable stock.

Then I can at least swop wheels quickly and easily to test the finish between different wheels.

I am also grinding dry at this time.