Knife making , Suitable steel ?

[Lewis_RX8]

Hi folks

Hoping to get my finger out and make a camping / bushcraft type knife for this summer's activities

Just curious as to the types of steel that are preferred and if this might be any good ?

Got it from the scrapyard for a mild steel weighed in price so quite cheap just thought it was flat bar till I read it

So it's an oil hardening k.e 595 steel as found in this advert

The Sheffield company Kayser Ellison steel works that stamped it merged and changed name in 1960s so is atleast as old as the 60s if not more

So it's 1/4 inch thick which seems the size for alot of heavy duty knifes for battoning wood etc so that seemed good then about 30mm wide so seems good dimensions but unsure on how you would heat treat it etc

Quick test with a file certainly doesn't bite into it as much like mild steel but it will cut it fine on the regular file

So wonder if I could use this or should I just order some other hardening steels

Cheers folks

 

[Screwdriver]

Looks like toolsteel, aka very high carbon steel.

You could make a knife by stock removal but I'd hesitate to forge it. It will end up hard but very brittle and need a fair bit of experimenting to temper if you go too thin. Or just accept it will be brittle and go for a razor edge which it would hold very well.

That type of material would be ideal for form tools for the lathe it even looks suspiciously like a parting off blade blank.

 

[hotponyshoes]

It will probably cut with a file as it will have originally been supplied annealed (ie. It's not been hardened/heat treated yet)

There is not really any "best type" of material to make any particular blade from.
The best choice for YOU to make YOUR blade from will depend on loads of factors,
Are you forging the blade or grinding it out of a lump.
What facilities do you have for heat treating it?
What sort of finish do you want, ie. jet black, mirror polish, natural etc
What sort of edge do you want, razor sharp that needs a strop every time you use it or something "sharp enough" that needs sharpening once a year?
Corrosion resistance? Will it get washed, wiped with oil and hung next to the fire place every use or live on a fishing boat covered in fish blood and salt water?

What you have got is a known grade of steel which makes it a lot easier to find information/advice on working with it.
Unfortunately, you only seem to have one piece of it so not much to practice with!
If you just want to make a knife then by all means, crack on with that bit.
It's not cost you a worrying amount of money if it all ends badly
If it does turn out nicely but won't hold an edge or the tip snaps off there is nothing to stop you having another (or multiple) go at heat treat.

If however, you want to get into knife making, then a more common grade might be a better idea.
A decent knife maker using a basic grade of steel that they know well is going to make a far better product than me if I had a length of the best steel in the world and all the best kit to work it with!

 

[Screwdriver]

I didn't explain that very well (I'm following the closing arguments in the Depp trial) but I believe toolsteel is very difficult to forge. Never tried it so I don't know for sure.

The comment above about it being brittle refers to its post heat hardened condition, not as a result of forging it.

 

[hotponyshoes]

One tip if you do want to use that bit,
Look up the heat treating info (and make sure it is feasible for you to carry it out) before you start spending hours grinding it down.
Last thing you want to do is make a beautiful blade and then not be able to find any method of hardening it or realising you don't have the oven to hold it at 287.53C for 33.22mins before immersing it in castrol qxp oil etc..

 

[Migmac]

Kent uses 1095 HC or AEB-L stainless for knives. If you know how to look after a knife the high carbon is absolutely fine. Takes and holds an edge really well

 

[Lewis_RX8]

Cheers folks

I've only got one bit but it's quite long about 5 feet so can have a few attempts

Planning on trying to make a basic knife I can put and edge on them to razor sharp fine but have never made one before from scratch.

I thinking to use a stock removal method and then heat treat with my blower and brake drum forge using coal.

Not terribly worried about the look of it or corrosion resistance it isn't being used in a fancy kitchen.

@Screwdriver it appears they reccomended that type of use in the red advert I copied into the post , talking about reamers etc and about its hardness and toughness

@hotponyshoes , very good idea I atleast know the exact steel but may be hard to find out those parameters if they last traded in the 60s so will have a bit of research

Might end up ordering a steel but I do prefer to use what I have lying around and I like the history of this steel so worth a shot.

@Migmac Good to hear cheers

 

[Screwdriver]

Looks a lot less like a parting off tool in that case.

While it is a science, it is amazing what you can "get away with" hardening steels. Without knowing the precise composition, it's difficult to know but certainly the advert suggest it could end up being a brilliant material for making a blade.

Has to be said, in that length, it must be worth a fair few quid! Personally, I'd be making something that required length, like a paper cropping thing or maybe even a sword...

 

[Lewis_RX8]

Trying to do a bit of research think I'll email this Sanderson Kayser company as I assume they are what's left after mergers from the original Kayser Ellsion who have the K.E symbol

 

[hotponyshoes]

Has to be said, in that length, it must be worth a fair few quid! Personally, I'd be making something that required length, like a paper cropping thing or maybe even a sword...

This would be my way of thinking as well
Probably why I have so much "useful stuff" lying around doing nothing...
But it does seem a shame to chop foot long lengths out of that when you could just use 5 old farriers rasps and keep that for when you need a 5' long blade!

 

[Lewis_RX8]

This would be my way of thinking as well
Probably why I have so much "useful stuff" lying around doing nothing...
But it does seem a shame to chop foot long lengths out of that when you could just use 5 old farriers rasps and keep that for when you need a 5' long blade!

I'll have a look out for some of them as you say I only want a 4-6" blade , I've seen on YouTube etc people use leaf.springs and old saw blades there's quite a few sources to repurpose from which may suit me better then. Also not such a waste if it dosent work or you cock it up as it was scrap metal anyway

 

[Screwdriver]

I have some experience in this matter. Grabbed a ton of random stock from a dead mans shed when I used to run around in the van and do workshop clearances.

My very first project in my new forge I grabbed a decent chunk of mystery metal to forge out a bending fork. It was impossibly hard. Being my first project with a decent sized 2x1 chunk of steel I didn't know what to expect, after all, it looks so easy on YouTube...

Two days later my elbow was screaming at me and my shoulder gave up. Turns out my random chunk (two matched three foot lengths of it) was actually some sort of high carbon steel, tool steel, gauge plate or whatever. Whatever it was, it really didn't want to move no matter how hard I hit it.

 

[hotponyshoes]

Actually, rethinking my last post...
It's only worth what someone will pay for it and somebody has already sent it in for scrap once!!!

Most of the tool steel I get in ends up getting cut down into shorter lengths for balde making as nobody wants 1m+ of it or, if they do, they take it chopped down to save a few quid on the postage.

Even on my imaginary "would like to do one day" list I don't have any uses for a 5' blade.
I think I would be using a round blade and linear rail rather than pushing something manually..

A big, slice-through-silk kill-bill style thing would be on my list but, realistically, it would only ever be a display piece and I think a length of shot-blasted & mirror polished stainless with a black granite handle would look better than a sharp one..

Ps, I have got plenty of known-grade farriers rasps here if you want any.
I also normally have a decent stock of 01 plus various bits of ti and stainless etc
The files take a bit of work to loose all the teeth but a lot of people just leave some of the tooth pattern as a feature.
Best thing about them is they are cheap enough to burn and there is a constant supply available!!

 

[Screwdriver]

Yeah, I really need to develop that sort of mentality. Can't keep saving it for a rainy day.

As for the files, they are pretty awesome as it is! I use them a lot for just general metalwork. They don't half shift aluminium. You could go through a 4x2 with those things, like a saw. I have yet to actually cut one up for knifemaking.

 

[—Tom—]

From a quick Google:
K.E. 595 Sanderson Kayser Ltd. Cold work tool steel; C 1.25; Cr 1.2; Mn 0.85; W 1.3; bal Fe. Oil hardening alloy tool steel; for cold drawing and swaging .

So higher carbon content than 01 but not as high as D2, and without the Cr that D2 has.
Seems like it would be fine for forging or stock removal, as isn’t too heavily alloyed.
Heat treat wise I’d treat it like O1, if you’re doing a backyard heat treat take it just past non magnetic (curie point is 770c and you want it to be 780-820c then straight into oil. I wouldn’t get too excited by which oil- cooking oil works fine.
Once out of the quench a file should skate, it may bite at first due to decarb on the surface, but then skate once down to hard steel. For general bushcraft use I’d do 2 2hour tempers at 220c (clean the oil off before putting it in the kitchen oven) for about 58/59 Rockwell C.

If you want to cut off a bit and harden it with your setup I’d be happy to hardness test for you so you can see if you’re in the ballpark.

From the spec it should make a decent knife, nice find

 

[tom2207]

Id make the knife out of the file you have in the picture ,,, and put the steel away for a rainy day.

 

[Lewis_RX8]

From a quick Google:
K.E. 595 Sanderson Kayser Ltd. Cold work tool steel; C 1.25; Cr 1.2; Mn 0.85; W 1.3; bal Fe. Oil hardening alloy tool steel; for cold drawing and swaging .

So higher carbon content than 01 but not as high as D2, and without the Cr that D2 has.
Seems like it would be fine for forging or stock removal, as isn’t too heavily alloyed.
Heat treat wise I’d treat it like O1, if you’re doing a backyard heat treat take it just past non magnetic (curie point is 770c and you want it to be 780-820c then straight into oil. I wouldn’t get too excited by which oil- cooking oil works fine.
Once out of the quench a file should skate, it may bite at first due to decarb on the surface, but then skate once down to hard steel. For general bushcraft use I’d do 2 2hour tempers at 220c (clean the oil off before putting it in the kitchen oven) for about 58/59 Rockwell C.

If you want to cut off a bit and harden it with your setup I’d be happy to hardness test for you so you can see if you’re in the ballpark.

From the spec it should make a decent knife, nice find

Wow thanks for that , Better google Fu than me it seems

Cheers for the information tom , seems I may be able to use it after all then which is good to hear. Will make sure its not a waste of a nice tool steel when another bit of scrap carbon steel could do the job.

I appreciate the offer on the hardness testing but sounds far too scientific for anything I bodge in the garage lol , I quite like the rockwell hardness files AvE uses to test steel seeing what hardness files dig in and what skates over to find the approximate hardness.

 

[h-dom]

Great advice from Tom above, if you don't have the facilities to measure 770 degrees like he said just go just past non magnetic. You don't want it glowing yellow, you'll get cracks and the first time you smack it with the hammer into some wood you will have two knives.

Anything I'm not sure about now I cut a couple of coupons off the end, heat them to non magnetic and then quench one in oil and one in water. Then cut with a slitting disc 1/3 the way through, clamp in the vice and hammer it. It should snap if it has hardened, then check the grain structure.

Normalising is more important than is made out. Heat to non magnetic then allow to air cool until it is touch cool, then repeat 2 more times. It will make a stronger blade and less prone to cracks.

Also 5ft is a great score but who needs a sword nowadays? Make a few knives out of it and you will get addicted.

Good luck!

 

[8ob]

Nothing wrong with old leaf spring steel for making knives, dirt cheap and easy to find.Files can be brittle, just saying.

Bob

 

[outofthefire]

Unless you've got a source of Strontium, salt is a good indicator of temperature it melts at 801°c (Strontium melts at 777°c) sprinkle a bit on the blade when it melts pull it out of the heat.