MW 5800 Torch spares

[Munkul]

So it's a MW5800 powermaster I've got, with my new (to me) S3 speedpulse. And tonight I realised the plastic liner is shot... I bet the previous owner went through tips quickly!
Anyway it needs an outer sheath, a steel liner and a plastic/ptfe liner. I definitely need a new plastic liner for aluminium and preferably delivered by Tuesday ready for work!
Have I got it right that this torch uses Abimig 555d parts? And is the liner much different to a mb36/501d? The binzel part numbers are different.
Any help greatly appreciated

 

[matt1978]

The front end spares and liners are all compatible with the MB501 style torch

 

[Munkul]

Awesome, thanks Matt.
So given that the liners are all interchangeable between MB36/501, it then follows that any liner will do?
I've bought two liners anyway, so I'll find out the hard way lol.

I'd forgotten what a faff aluminium birds nests are... Burned my only 1.2A tip back after 1 ft of weld and from then on, nothing went right! I've had a great run with push aluminium up til now... Fingers crossed liner and new tips will fix it.

 

[matt1978]

Awesome, thanks Matt.
So given that the liners are all interchangeable between MB36/501, it then follows that any liner will do?
I've bought two liners anyway, so I'll find out the hard way lol.

I'd forgotten what a faff aluminium birds nests are... Burned my only 1.2A tip back after 1 ft of weld and from then on, nothing went right! I've had a great run with push aluminium up til now... Fingers crossed liner and new tips will fix it.

Are the rollers inside the machine U groove? You will know if they are the right ones as they will have a "A" stamped on them. Also the liner should be a Combination liner, with the Black carbon teflon or the Red PTFE, but either way they should have the flexible brass spiral that goes through the swan neck and up to the back of the Tip.

Dont use the "A" Tips, they are most often way oversized. The only way the machine can transfer the Pulse characteristics is via the tip, so a good contact is essential. Whenever I weld Aluminium I never use the "A" tips. Just the standard 1.2mm tips will be fine.

Your main areas of concern are...

Rollers, correct type and pressure (around 2-2.5)

Fitting the liner, removing the capillary tube from inside the euro fitting and running the soft liner all the way back to the end of the rollers, so that the wire is 100% supported all the way through.

 

[Munkul]

It's got the U rollers, but flat faced idlers. Not my preference, but I know it works OK on 5356 wire. Very soft tension, probably wants wound back further.
It has the wire liner section into the Swan neck. It's got the capillary tube removed and the liner ran to the rolls (end is damaged though) with the brass support tube. Currently on a red plastic liner, I've went for Teflon this time.
It came with a single 1.2A tip, and all I have are 1.0 and 1.2 tips on stock. I've always used 1.0mm ally wire and 1.2 tips. I tried two binzel 1.2 tips but they both snagged the wire, I could feel the rips along the wire. Maybe the wire quality, its nearly finished and I have another reel to try. Or maybe the liner didn't seat properly when I put it back in. Like I say, its damaged, and the wire drags through it slightly anyways.

New liner and tips should sort it, I'll try a standard 1.2 tip once it's running properly on 1.2A's.
Finbarr at Express told us to use A's and their S3 ran perfectly at 260 amps in all modes... I dunno, we've always liked oversize tips. Used to use 1.4 on 1.2 wire, I bet there's not much difference between 1.4 and 1.2A... Lol

 

[matt1978]

90% of the machines well sell for Ali have the 2 grooved lower rollers and the 2 flat pressure rolls at the top. That will be more than fine. We only upgrade them to the 4 grooved rollers for when the machine is configured with a Push Pull torch or Nano feeder.

On the pressure arms, there is a scale, 0-5 (I think) I typically have the pressure set so the bottom of the screw down adjuster is at the top of the 2, towards half way through.

Regarding the “A” tips the torch, this was more old skool thinking. Bigger hole, less drag, less burn backs. And that is ok logic for “dumb” processes like Spray. But for the smarter processes like the advanced Pulse processes, the loss of contact can causes arc instability and poor welding results.

1.2 A tips were always meant to be 1.4mm internal diameter, but I don’t think they monitor the tolerance as much. I have had in the past 1.2A tips where 1.6mm wire has passed through without even touching the sides. This caused massive problems on Pulse/SpeedPulse because there was never a consistent contact from the tip to the wire.

As I’ve said, I never have any issues using standard 1.2mm tips but whatever works for you is also fine

 

[Munkul]

Cheers Matt

Here's the new machine in its habitat. It cleaned up really nice, was a bit unloved.

 

[Munkul]

Got the new liner fitted and trimmed properly. Realised that half the problem was that the wire section wouldn't slide through the swan neck without snagging - finally got it seated. I reckon the old liner was trimmed short and the wire was unsupported through the neck. I'm surprised it worked at all!
I thought I'd take a couple of pics for anyone considering trying a push torch. If you do it like this, it works great
Matt you were right - the 1.2As have a bigger hole than 1.4's! I'm running a 1.4 tip atm on speedpulse and it's running great.

 

[Brad93]

Got the new liner fitted and trimmed properly. Realised that half the problem was that the wire section wouldn't slide through the swan neck without snagging - finally got it seated. I reckon the old liner was trimmed short and the wire was unsupported through the neck. I'm surprised it worked at all!
I thought I'd take a couple of pics for anyone considering trying a push torch. If you do it like this, it works great
Matt you were right - the 1.2As have a bigger hole than 1.4's! I'm running a 1.4 tip atm on speedpulse and it's running great.
View attachment 289775View attachment 289776

I’d like to try water cooled on ali I reckon that’s where half my issues originate from as the first run or two run great then it starts burning back you know like up inside the shroud.

 

[matt1978]

I’d like to try water cooled on ali I reckon that’s where half my issues originate from as the first run or two run great then it starts burning back you know like up inside the shroud.

yes that’s the problem. Once you have one burn back it typically damages the liner somewhere along its length and it leads to more burn backs

 

[Munkul]

We've made gas cooled torches work just fine on 5356 and 4043.

I have a cheap Parker MB36 on the Miller, with a black carbon-teflon liner and combi wire neck. It's done several feet at a time of 5356 at 200 amps, no real problems. That's without the liner extending all the way to the rolls, as well - only to the standard capillary tube (which is a good fit, in fairness). It does get hot, and once its hot you can feel and see the wire snagging on the tip sometimes. It doesn't burn back, and it does work, but once it's hot it doesn't run as nicely.

Only times we've had major problems with feeding alloy is with 1050/1080 pure. We couldn't get gas cooled torches to run it, at least not on the Lincoln we had.
We also had a problem when we replaced a mb36 liner with straight teflon, no combi wire neck. The teflon neck overheats after 6 inches and jams the wire feed.
Oh, and a load of burn backs on the hire S3 a few years back, when we finally realised it was old oxidised wire causing the problems... changed to a nice new reel - problems disappeared!

Like Matt says, once the liner is damaged, you're on a hiding to nothing... but it's luck of the draw as to whether it damages anything on a burn back or not... The carbon-teflon liners seem a lot more robust than the plain teflon liners.

 

[Munkul]

Speedpulse is a revelation. The Miller Optima pulse was a lot better than plain spray, but still had to get it set just right, or the weld profile looked bad.

Speedpulse just works... burns in nice and hot, but controllable out-of-position. I especially like the hot start and crater fill functions, and I like that it ramps back up if you pull the trigger again in 2T. Great for coming onto edges, I can feather it like i'd feather a TIG torch button.

I'm still getting to grips with it mind... I don't do a huge amount of MIG to start with, never mind alloy MIG!

 

[Munkul]

I’d like to try water cooled on ali I reckon that’s where half my issues originate from as the first run or two run great then it starts burning back you know like up inside the shroud.

I thought you had a cooler on yours?
If I had the choice I'd go water cooled every time, it keeps everything at the gun end cool and eliminates the tip and neck heating-expansion issue. I know I just said MB36 guns work fine, but that doesn't mean I like em

 

[Hood]

I thought you had a cooler on yours?
If I had the choice I'd go water cooled every time, it keeps everything at the gun end cool and eliminates the tip and neck heating-expansion issue. I know I just said MB36 guns work fine, but that doesn't mean I like em

Depends, in a workshop environment then maybe, for me water cooling would be a PITA, more weight to lug around and more complexity. Gas cooled works great for me so no need to change.
BTW if you ever looking for a nano feeder that was mentioned above let me know
Just gas cooled though.

 

[Brad93]

Well. 1.2mm tips instead of 1.2A tips have been a revelation for me. Stiffer arc, much more stable than with the 1.2A tips. Wish I tried them years ago.

I still have trouble with the wire burning back too far causing a long arc which I have to offset by going to about -12 on the arc length control. But perhaps that’s down to a 4m torch, who knows.

One thing is for sure I need to get a cooler, 3 or 4 runs and the air cooled dedicated aluminium torch is red hot.

 

[Brad93]

I thought you had a cooler on yours?
If I had the choice I'd go water cooled every time, it keeps everything at the gun end cool and eliminates the tip and neck heating-expansion issue. I know I just said MB36 guns work fine, but that doesn't mean I like em

I use the cooler from my TIG but that needs switching on manually and it’s a noisy bastard.
And I still need some spare parts for my water cooled Lorch gun. I have a 7800

 

[Brad93]

This was done with the 1.2A tips.

I will take a picture of the welds done with a 1.2 tip later.

 

[Brad93]

@matt1978 have you got a part number for a carbon/Teflon liner?

I still need to sort out a cooler and the spares for that torch too.

 

[Munkul]

Well. 1.2mm tips instead of 1.2A tips have been a revelation for me. Stiffer arc, much more stable than with the 1.2A tips. Wish I tried them years ago.

I still have trouble with the wire burning back too far causing a long arc which I have to offset by going to about -12 on the arc length control. But perhaps that’s down to a 4m torch, who knows.

One thing is for sure I need to get a cooler, 3 or 4 runs and the air cooled dedicated aluminium torch is red hot.

I still don't think i could get away with 1.2 tips, they're too tight on the wire I'm using.

I have a handful of 1.4 binzels and a new pack of 10 1.2A's. Last night I burnt up the 1.4 tip I fitted to start with, and changed to a 1.2A... immediate change in the arc, not as stable, more crackle. I'm thinking I'll buy 1.4s from now on, and the 1.2As will be put to the back of the drawer!

 

[Brad93]

I still don't think i could get away with 1.2 tips, they're too tight on the wire I'm using.

I have a handful of 1.4 binzels and a new pack of 10 1.2A's. Last night I burnt up the 1.4 tip I fitted to start with, and changed to a 1.2A... immediate change in the arc, not as stable, more crackle. I'm thinking I'll buy 1.4s from now on, and the 1.2As will be put to the back of the drawer!

Mine has always welded like that with the crackle and not quite as stable, turns out it was the tips.
I am using ESAB wire and the 1.2mm tip is a good fit even when hot