BChild
SIP - enough with the mods!!!!
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- Thread starter BChild
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BChild
SIP - enough with the mods!!!!
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Well it wouldn't do anything with the 87a and 87 swapped it just buzzed the relay so I swapped them and it worked a treat straight away
No run on at all..... Not that noticable a lower speeds but at more than 3m per min it definately stops dead.
What is now annoying me is the welder settings change every time you move it - I know what the problem is so should be easily fixed - that 1000 ohm trim pot moves whenever the welder gets bumped and this is changing my base start point so writing settings down for future reference is a waste of time.
A good example of how much it changes is last week 65-95 was a nice range for the lowest power setting - today it was 25 - 55 so it's pretty annoying to say the least. The ten turn wire feed pot makes it bearable I know why I struggled with the over sensitive 3/4 turn pot now - that in combination with a trim pot that changes as it's moved or bumped meant I was never in the same zone twice
Choices are - fit multi turn 100K or 1000K pot or nail varnish the current one in a fixed position so it's unaffected by movement
I think the nail varnish option is worth a crack - quick and easy and if it doesn't work I'll replace the pot
I know everyone will be very glad that this thread will be able to sink to the bottom and die
PS it still has "play" in the wire between the wire feed roller and the end of the torch - It's about 5mm or movement - I've changed the tip for a new one and checked out the wire feed motor (no play there) so I am putting this down to the eurotorch and metal liner offering little or no resistance to wire feed and a curve in the torch lead in normal use - I'll see if I still have play when the torch is extended straight out unless anyone else thinks it's normal
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BChild
SIP - enough with the mods!!!!
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Choices are - fit multi turn 100K or 1000K pot or nail varnish the current one in a fixed position so it's unaffected by movement
I think the nail varnish option is worth a crack - quick and easy and if it doesn't work I'll replace the pot
Nail varnish added after pot reset - see if it stays in the same position after a bit of movement - quick test run revealed it's back to 55-75 for a nice steady sizzle less and you get the pop pop sound from insuffiecient wire speed - more and it just gets harsh and noisy
Yep torch lead straight out no curve = = 1-2mm of play on the wire
Put a loop in it and you can pull wire in and out by 5mm (ish)
Must have been too used to a sticky/grabby liner on the old hobby torch - still at least I know when the play dissappears it's time to clean out the liner
And I've run out of gas - again - although this time I realised straight away!!!
Glad you got it sussed. The braking really is impressive, isn't it?
You need to replace it with a 100 Ohm trim-pot. The 1K Ohm is too high a resistance and the range of adjustment is right up against the lower end. Later SIPs use 100 Ohm. I replaced mine and it made a huge difference - the range of adjustment is much wider and more central. I wouldn't say there is any need to use a multi-turn pot for this but I can't think that it would do any harm.
BChild
SIP - enough with the mods!!!!
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You don't notice it on lower wire feed speeds but if I ever do any thicker stuff it'll make a big difference I'm sure
I think I've got it pinned now - you are right about the sensitivity - a smidge one way and no wire feed at all - smidge the other way and I spits it out like you are doing 6mm plate!!!
I'll see if it stays stable if it doesn't then it will be the last time I pull the side off - Short of changing the insides completely there isn't much more I can do....
I replaced the cable ties on the shielding gas solenoid today with micro jubilee clips
I'd like to
- tidy up the wiring and shorten a few lengths to make it neater inside the case (most of the additional wiring was make it long enough off the machine)
- Mount the transformers with some bigger rivets I've aquired to replace the light duty ones or I may even bolt them in to the chassis (unsure)
- mount the PCB properly so I can loose the cable tie temporary fix
- Get rid of the scotchlocks I used when I replaced the ten turn pot after I inadvertantly pulled the shaft out trying to remove a temporary dial......
None of the above will make any difference to the performance of the welder but I've run out of gas
unless I go back to disposables till next wed....... NOT
Just trying to negotiate a day off with work so that I can get a training session with Malcolm sorted - now looking like early July now - I'll be interested to see what he makes of this bstardised SIP it as things like the ten turn pot and counter, and relay brake haven't been tried on one here (not that I can find)
I you decide to do something more elaborate , with your braking circuit.
http://books.google.com/books?id=99...ndD7CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7
http://books.google.com/books?id=99...ndD7CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7
BChild
SIP - enough with the mods!!!!
- Messages
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Eerrrr - That's probably going to expand my knowledge a bit too much - I'm reaching the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" stage as far as this damn welder is concerned - but I do want to make a wheel polisher using a car hub and washing machine motor on a sturdy frame but I think I'd better finsih this damn mini first before I move on to anything else
The relay brake has been tried on mine. That's why I mentioned it
Regarding R Kraft's link, more sophisticated will probably give better results up to a point but the SIP wire-feed motor is so weedy that I can't imagine its inertia and that of the feed mechanism represents much of a strain. A resistor along with the relay would probably be the most complex solution for this that I would consider worthwhile for a SIP.
The relay brake has been tried on mine. That's why I mentioned it
Regarding R Kraft's link, more sophisticated will probably give better results up to a point but the SIP wire-feed motor is so weedy that I can't imagine its inertia and that of the feed mechanism represents much of a strain. A resistor along with the relay would probably be the most complex solution for this that I would consider worthwhile for a SIP.
I was thinking more along the lines of using a pot in place of R1, to allow adjustment of the coasting cycle.
BChild had mentioned using a pot directly in the braking circuit.
Robert
Yes, that would be feasible. It would just take some working out (or measurement) to decide the power rating of the pot so as not to damage it on maximum braking from maximum speed.
BChild
SIP - enough with the mods!!!!
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Thanks for the suggestions guys and if I haven't thanked you already thanks for the guidance and input on this thread
I'm gonna leave it alone for a while and work on the "practice with what I have" process if my training session with Malcolm reveals anything else I need to do to it (rather than my own flawed approch to glueing tin together) I'll pick it up from there
BChild
SIP - enough with the mods!!!!
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OK so on friday last week I got to meet Malcolm and cover some aspects of MIG welding that were causing me problems and also see what he made of my bstardised SIP running CO2.
It's covered in a thread elsewhere so I won't repeat it all here - what I will concentrate on is the three issues
1. No wire feed after a period of running on higher settings
When we were running up on the higher power levels it stopped feeding the wire - initially we thought it was thermal overload but the light didn't come on - A quick strip down and the relay I'd added to stop WF motor run on was bridged out of the circuit - this fixed it however we then suffered with a lot of stickout after any welding operations - something isn't right with the relay or the wiring so I need to investigate further
2. Thin metals cold welds and wire feed speeds inconsistant
The other main problem centered around thin metals and to be honest the performance of my SIP had us both foxed for a while - it constantly cold starts and you can hear definate increases in wire speed during the first few seconds of welding.
Possible causes
- Heavy wire spool causing drag on initial start
- WFM gearbox issue - thick grease (off base suggestion)
- Low power setting so low voltage leading to reduced torque avaliable (it definately was less noticable at higher wire feed speeds
3. Gas choice
So I've been running it on CO2 and the performance of the welder on thin metals with CO2 was very poor - In order to fault find the SIP we swapped it over to argoshield light and all the thin metal problems just disappeared and my bastardised SIP laid down some wonderfull welds on 0.8mm test pieces and was totally different in sound and feel.
If I could improve the problems with the wire feed speed it may be better and wwere running on 0.6mm wire and I might try going back to 0.8mm wire and try a few test pieces to see if it's any better but bottom line is I don't know what else I can do apart from sell my soul to the Devil (BOC) to get some argoshield light..........
It's covered in a thread elsewhere so I won't repeat it all here - what I will concentrate on is the three issues
1. No wire feed after a period of running on higher settings
When we were running up on the higher power levels it stopped feeding the wire - initially we thought it was thermal overload but the light didn't come on - A quick strip down and the relay I'd added to stop WF motor run on was bridged out of the circuit - this fixed it however we then suffered with a lot of stickout after any welding operations - something isn't right with the relay or the wiring so I need to investigate further
2. Thin metals cold welds and wire feed speeds inconsistant
The other main problem centered around thin metals and to be honest the performance of my SIP had us both foxed for a while - it constantly cold starts and you can hear definate increases in wire speed during the first few seconds of welding.
Possible causes
- Heavy wire spool causing drag on initial start
- WFM gearbox issue - thick grease (off base suggestion)
- Low power setting so low voltage leading to reduced torque avaliable (it definately was less noticable at higher wire feed speeds
3. Gas choice
So I've been running it on CO2 and the performance of the welder on thin metals with CO2 was very poor - In order to fault find the SIP we swapped it over to argoshield light and all the thin metal problems just disappeared and my bastardised SIP laid down some wonderfull welds on 0.8mm test pieces and was totally different in sound and feel.
If I could improve the problems with the wire feed speed it may be better and wwere running on 0.6mm wire and I might try going back to 0.8mm wire and try a few test pieces to see if it's any better but bottom line is I don't know what else I can do apart from sell my soul to the Devil (BOC) to get some argoshield light..........
WindWalker
Member
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Hi Bchild, thanks for a really informative thread and kudos to the original modder for his ideas. I have followed the thread and since modified my old (1994 ish) 150dp.
Like you, I have found the wire speed settings to be an all or nothing situation, even after the mods. I did notice a big difference before the mod when I changed to a 1kg reel from the small .7kg one. Although not much bigger than a .7 reel the difference between very little wire on a .7kg reel and a full 1kg reel was very noticeable.
Thinking about it, I think it may be due to the diameter of the reel as well as the weight. The bigger the reel then the faster the outside will travel for a given spindle speed (I think!), so the bigger new reel is feeding wire off of a larger diameter thereby being faster than a small nearly finished reel. Does that make sense?
I had fairly good results from .7 reels but the bigger reel just wouldn’t allow me to set the wire speed easily. This may also be due to the trim pot fitted, not checked whether it is a 1k or 100 yet. It may be worth trying a small .7 reel of wire just to see if there is any difference?
The other thing I have been thinking is that the WF motor on bigger/better welders looks remarkably similar to windscreen wiper motors from seventies/eighties motors. BL springs to mind. I’m not sure if a wiper motor could be made to work in place of the weedy motor fitted? Room may be an issue and how the feed roller is attached may need thinking about but it may be an option.?
Like you, I have found the wire speed settings to be an all or nothing situation, even after the mods. I did notice a big difference before the mod when I changed to a 1kg reel from the small .7kg one. Although not much bigger than a .7 reel the difference between very little wire on a .7kg reel and a full 1kg reel was very noticeable.
Thinking about it, I think it may be due to the diameter of the reel as well as the weight. The bigger the reel then the faster the outside will travel for a given spindle speed (I think!), so the bigger new reel is feeding wire off of a larger diameter thereby being faster than a small nearly finished reel. Does that make sense?
I had fairly good results from .7 reels but the bigger reel just wouldn’t allow me to set the wire speed easily. This may also be due to the trim pot fitted, not checked whether it is a 1k or 100 yet. It may be worth trying a small .7 reel of wire just to see if there is any difference?
The other thing I have been thinking is that the WF motor on bigger/better welders looks remarkably similar to windscreen wiper motors from seventies/eighties motors. BL springs to mind. I’m not sure if a wiper motor could be made to work in place of the weedy motor fitted? Room may be an issue and how the feed roller is attached may need thinking about but it may be an option.?
WindWalker
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On the gas front, I eventually bit the bullet and got argoshield from BOC. It worked out at about £130 or so for a year and although I don’t like the cost, even for occasional use it’s worthwhile. It does make welding easier on thin metal and it didn’t come much thinner than on the Vitara!! Japanese steel seems very thin even when good
Like you I am largely happy with how the welder performs now but it would be much better if the wire speed could be consistent and had a wider adjustment window than at present. Hopefully a solution can be found
Like you I am largely happy with how the welder performs now but it would be much better if the wire speed could be consistent and had a wider adjustment window than at present. Hopefully a solution can be found
WindWalker
Member
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Having looked around at wire feed motors there seems to be a number of the larger versions available from China, not sure on prices as sites don’t seem to list prices.
In my earlier post about feed roller fitting I had forgotten about the gearbox so it would be fitting gearbox to motor not feed roller. I have seen the small motor and drive assembly fitted to the Clarkes and I believe some Draper units and the motor looks similar to the sip motor. Is it the same and the difference is in the gearbox and/or tensioning mechanism? Weldequipe supplied someone with one so fitting that whole unit may be an option?
I realise that with further mods we get into the “spend the money on a proper welder” scenario but as has been said, many are stuck with what they have and only find its limitations when they become more experienced. My own welder was bought in about 1994 before sites like this existed and was bought after reading car magazine reviews….
I wonder if the transformer mod, a 100 ohm trimpot, a length of curtain wire for a liner and a complete wire feed motor and drive assembly from a Clarke would address all the short comings of the sip? Not sure on the price of a motor assembly but can’t be that expensive and if it results in trouble free welding then may be money well spent?
In my earlier post about feed roller fitting I had forgotten about the gearbox so it would be fitting gearbox to motor not feed roller. I have seen the small motor and drive assembly fitted to the Clarkes and I believe some Draper units and the motor looks similar to the sip motor. Is it the same and the difference is in the gearbox and/or tensioning mechanism? Weldequipe supplied someone with one so fitting that whole unit may be an option?
I realise that with further mods we get into the “spend the money on a proper welder” scenario but as has been said, many are stuck with what they have and only find its limitations when they become more experienced. My own welder was bought in about 1994 before sites like this existed and was bought after reading car magazine reviews….
I wonder if the transformer mod, a 100 ohm trimpot, a length of curtain wire for a liner and a complete wire feed motor and drive assembly from a Clarke would address all the short comings of the sip? Not sure on the price of a motor assembly but can’t be that expensive and if it results in trouble free welding then may be money well spent?
malcolm
& Clementine the Cat
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The wire speed up issue would drive me mad - cold starts and a workaround required for thinner metal. My own SIP 130 has the same issue. I suspect the little motor up against the inertia of the 5kg reel might not help.
I haven't noticed the same problem on Clarkes even though they have the same size motor. Whether that's due to a difference in the motor or a difference in how the motor is supplied I don't know. Possibly it gets a bit of oomph from the capacitors on start up?
Wouldn't be that difficult to knock something up from a wiper motor - only tricky thing would be machining up a set of rollers. Cuba made one: http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=12003
I haven't noticed the same problem on Clarkes even though they have the same size motor. Whether that's due to a difference in the motor or a difference in how the motor is supplied I don't know. Possibly it gets a bit of oomph from the capacitors on start up?
Wouldn't be that difficult to knock something up from a wiper motor - only tricky thing would be machining up a set of rollers. Cuba made one: http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=12003
shenion
Tool Pack Rat
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The SIP has almost no regulation on the power. The circuit will be effected by the gain of the transistor. That changes as it warms up.
The size of the motor does not mean much. I have seen near 1HP out of the motors the same size as tose used by SIP/Clarke.
Let me know the minimum and max voltages the motors use and I can draw up a regulated circuit.
The size of the motor does not mean much. I have seen near 1HP out of the motors the same size as tose used by SIP/Clarke.
Let me know the minimum and max voltages the motors use and I can draw up a regulated circuit.
The trouble seems to be the type of controller on the Sip welders.
It acts as a large variable resistor.
When the motor starts from a stop, the voltage is all dropped across the speed control transistor, only a fraction of a watt is available to start the motor turning.
The speed control board needs a voltage reference, to regulate the voltage on the motor.
As it is now the board just controls the motor voltage as a percentage of the input voltage.
Does anyone have the model/type number of a Sip wire feed motor ?, a Mabuchi number or some such.
I would like to look at the torque/voltage/amp chart.
Robert
It acts as a large variable resistor.
When the motor starts from a stop, the voltage is all dropped across the speed control transistor, only a fraction of a watt is available to start the motor turning.
The speed control board needs a voltage reference, to regulate the voltage on the motor.
As it is now the board just controls the motor voltage as a percentage of the input voltage.
Does anyone have the model/type number of a Sip wire feed motor ?, a Mabuchi number or some such.
I would like to look at the torque/voltage/amp chart.
Robert
WindWalker
Member
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Thanks for that link Malcolm, I‘d not seen that before. So an old wiper motor rigged as Cuba has or a variant of that might be possible. Space would be at a premium but it’s worth thinking about.
I think the issue I had going to a larger reel was that the diameter caused the wire to feed off of it at a higher speed for a given spindle speed and that pushed the adjustment right to the lower end of the speed scale where it doesn’t seem to be so controllable. A small increase in spindle speed gives a much larger change at the point where the wire is being fed off the reel. I am certainly down between 0 and 1 on the wire speed control and it is very sensitive to small movements.
I’m not sure about the start up issue but it does seem to struggle and the motor noise changes in the first few seconds so it seems I have that as well.
Would be interested to know why the Clarke seems better with the same/similar motor.
For reference my reel and motor are on the top of the machine laying flat not upright as the newer ones seem to be and the bigger sip’s.
I think the issue I had going to a larger reel was that the diameter caused the wire to feed off of it at a higher speed for a given spindle speed and that pushed the adjustment right to the lower end of the speed scale where it doesn’t seem to be so controllable. A small increase in spindle speed gives a much larger change at the point where the wire is being fed off the reel. I am certainly down between 0 and 1 on the wire speed control and it is very sensitive to small movements.
I’m not sure about the start up issue but it does seem to struggle and the motor noise changes in the first few seconds so it seems I have that as well.
Would be interested to know why the Clarke seems better with the same/similar motor. For reference my reel and motor are on the top of the machine laying flat not upright as the newer ones seem to be and the bigger sip’s.
