Show us your bench vice(s)

[SteveB58]

"In this case it may be an insert with recessed .N. which is removable for "normal" production and inserted to make "Naval" production.
The insert itself is recessed (which of course then produces a "raised" mark on the casting)."

No, the 'N' would be raised on the pattern as it is on the vice. But I agree that to change the tooling for a production run is unlikely.

"I said it was for naval use. Not Navy.
Big difference."

Really? naval relating to a navy or navies. Please elucidate.

Steve

 

[25.4_mechanic]

I said it was for naval use. Not Navy.
Big difference.

Could you please explain this big difference in more detail? Thank you very much!

However, experience tells me that to make a vice mould is one thing, but to make a modification to a vice moulding is not inexpensive, nor is it easy if that modification is not fixed (ie. a complete new/different mould made for the "Naval" mark).
I believe these are all sand castings (as opposed to investment castings).

In this case it may be an insert with recessed .N. which is removable for "normal" production and inserted to make "Naval" production.
The insert itself is recessed (which of course then produces a "raised" mark on the casting).

Hello Steve,

You've given this a lot of thought!

If I understand the process correctly - and like you I am assuming a sand mould - then for each model a separate positive, consisting of a corresponding number of parts, is made from wood and this positive is pressed into the prepared sand.

The sand forms the actual mould and is as such lost after each casting, but the raw sand itself can be used again and again.

If you now want to make an extension/modification that is to be raised in the workpiece, then with such simple marks as the ".N." you only have to apply a corresponding "plaque" to the wooden positive, which is then pressed into the sand mould as a recess - this is then raised again later on the workpiece and it looks like exactly such a thing in the picture.

It is more difficult to remove or deepen or stamp, because the material actually has to be taken out of the wood positive and has to be added again when it is changed back.

But this is only my understanding of the process.

Have a nice day all

Carsten

--

 

[The_Yellow_Ardvark]

Could you please explain this big difference in more detail? Thank you very much!

The Government stamp is from 1952, that means it was received into a Government store in 1952. It would of been given a Depo store tag. No store number or anything like that. As it had not assigned or allocated to a government department.

The C2 stamp is an odd one and what I can find out is cinfussing. With out any more details it is going to be difficult.

The arrow mark does not mean MOD or WD all the time. It just means it was/is goverment store or owned item.



When it would be allocated or issued it would of been given more stamps.

Who it was issued too, stores number, date of issue and all the other details to pin it to one branch of the government run organisations.



A classic example is in the old Naval stores under the hills near Bath. There are escalators marked up Euston station. Stamped BR and there stock number. That was painted over and a new plate added giving it the details of a RNAD Corsham. It was till there in 1999.



The N stamp.

That just mean it was cast in the metal the government spec for Naval use. Later it was reclassified as Maritine. Naval does not mean it will be issued to the Navy. It could of been. If it was it would be stamped up as such.



The GPO had boats, as did the London Fire brigade, as did Hull and Liverpool. So does the Army. The stamp was a brass plate added to a standard mould to identify it in the foundry as a Navy cast item. Each vice was cast as one unit. So the jaws were of the same cast.



The same ID plate was stamped out on a fly press and was normally in brass. I never found out what the different in the metals was. Nor could I find ant documentation. But when I was involved in the de-commission of The RNSD stores near Bath. We had so much information to hand, as each item had to be identified, logged and it's future path chosen.



The records were so detailed, that if we had a label it could be cross reference to a order. Then the men in suits would make up a hive mind to what was to happen to it.



One such box of hammers were stamped Broad arrow 1942 and the Russian government stamp. This was some of the many items left over from WW2 what was meant to be sent to the Russians.



The N was sometimes confused with the items for the up and coming reactors being built. But that “Private” money, but in real time it was not.



Later when the old departments from WW2 merged or were disbanded then you started

getting departmental stamps. Navy Army RAF GPO BTo name a few common ones.The GPO records of stock items were based on the RN method. Later our Armed forces started using a NATO stock numbers. 5 digits for NATO ID, followed by 2 digits for country. (99 was the UK) followed by a 7 digit part identifying number..

That is a good way to pin the dates down.



The odd one is the items for Parliament. They have their own method. It makes no sense to any one. The submarine periscope is listed as:

A Vertical optical chamber viewing unit Mk1.



When I was visiting the foundry in Fareham, were Tesco is now, they were still adding the brass pates to the government to a lot of their casting for the Navy items.

For the simple reason no one had updated the specs for those casting. This was in the late 1980’s.








The Government stamp is from 1952, that means it was received into a Government store in 1952. It would of been given a Depo store tag. No store number or anything like that. As it had not assigned or allocated to a government department.


The C2 stamp is an odd one and what I can find out is cinfussing. With out any more details it is going to be difficult.


The arrow mark does not mean MOD or WD all the time. It just means it was/is goverment store or owned item.





When it would be allocated or issued it would of been given more stamps.


Who it was issued too, stores number, date of issue and all the other details to pin it to one branch of the government run organisations.





A classic example is in the old Naval stores under the hills near Bath. There are escalators marked up Euston station. Stamped BR and there stock number. That was painted over and a new plate added giving it the details of a RNAD Corsham. It was till there in 1999.





The N stamp.


That just mean it was cast in the metal the government spec for Naval use. Later it was reclassified as Maritine. Naval does not mean it will be issued to the Navy. It could of been. If it was it would be stamped up as such.





The GPO had boats, as did the London Fire brigade, as did Hull and Liverpool. So does the Army. The stamp was a brass plate added to a standard mould to identify it in the foundry as a Navy cast item. Each vice was cast as one unit. So the jaws were of the same cast.





The same ID plate was stamped out on a fly press and was normally in brass. I never found out what the different in the metals was. Nor could I find ant documentation. But when I was involved in the de-commission of The RNSD stores near Bath. We had so much information to hand, as each item had to be identified, logged and it's future path chosen.





The records were so detailed, that if we had a label it could be cross reference to a order. Then the men in suits would make up a hive mind to what was to happen to it.





One such box of hammers were stamped Broad arrow 1942 and the Russian government stamp. This was some of the many items left over from WW2 what was meant to be sent to the Russians.





The N was sometimes confused with the items for the up and coming reactors being built. But that “Private” money, but in real time it was not.





Later when the old departments from WW2 merged or were disbanded then you started


getting departmental stamps. Navy Army RAF GPO BTo name a few common ones.The GPO records of stock items were based on the RN method. Later our Armed forces started using a NATO stock numbers. 5 digits for NATO ID, followed by 2 digits for country. (99 was the UK) followed by a 7 digit part identifying number..


That is a good way to pin the dates down.





The odd one is the items for Parliament. They have their own method. It makes no sense to any one. The submarine periscope is listed as:


A Vertical optical chamber viewing unit Mk1.





When I was visiting the foundry in Fareham, were Tesco is now, they were still adding the brass pates to the government to a lot of their casting for the Navy items.


For the simple reason no one had updated the specs for those casting. This was in the late 1980’s.

 

[StevieO]

Could you please explain this big difference in more detail? Thank you very much!




Hello Steve,

You've given this a lot of thought!

If I understand the process correctly - and like you I am assuming a sand mould - then for each model a separate positive, consisting of a corresponding number of parts, is made from wood and this positive is pressed into the prepared sand.

The sand forms the actual mould and is as such lost after each casting, but the raw sand itself can be used again and again.

If you now want to make an extension/modification that is to be raised in the workpiece, then with such simple marks as the ".N." you only have to apply a corresponding "plaque" to the wooden positive, which is then pressed into the sand mould as a recess - this is then raised again later on the workpiece and it looks like exactly such a thing in the picture.

It is more difficult to remove or deepen or stamp, because the material actually has to be taken out of the wood positive and has to be added again when it is changed back.

But this is only my understanding of the process.

Have a nice day all

Carsten

--

Hi Cartsen,
You are correct about the insert - my brain thought in reverse - the wife says I always do that coz I'm male!!

 

[StevieO]

"In this case it may be an insert with recessed .N. which is removable for "normal" production and inserted to make "Naval" production.
The insert itself is recessed (which of course then produces a "raised" mark on the casting)."

No, the 'N' would be raised on the pattern as it is on the vice. But I agree that to change the tooling for a production run is unlikely.

"I said it was for naval use. Not Navy.
Big difference."

Really? naval relating to a navy or navies. Please elucidate.

Steve

Hi Steve,
You are correct about the insert - my brain thought in reverse - the wife says I always do that coz I'm male!!

 

[25.4_mechanic]

Hi Cartsen,
You are correct about the insert - my brain thought in reverse

I had also only posted my understanding here for verification .... This time I was probably right.

- the wife says I always do that coz I'm male!!

And of course you won't want to contradict her there .... is that why you have butchered my name?


No, no, no problem of course, I'm quite relaxed about it, but of course I couldn't miss that chance now.


Besides, the Yanks generally butcher the name and especially when they are supposed to speak it.

I then explain: How many CARS? TEN! Then it usually sounds somewhat recognisable and comes close to the truth at the moment btw.


Carsten

--

 

[Gragson]

8mm would be 5/16“.

Cheers Matt
Any ideas od thread - BSW?

 

[MattF]

It should be. Don't think they ever used BSF.

 

[Gragson]

Must get some imperial thread gauges

Dug out a known 5/16 BSW and tried it in the jaw holes of the 8 I picked up and it's not happening all the way through any of them, although they are fine on the 37.

Looking at the old bolts of the 8, they are all miss matched who knows what stripped crap, so I will get a 5/16 tap and chase them through and order the right screws.

 

[SteveB58]

Hi Steve,
You are correct about the insert - my brain thought in reverse - the wife says I always do that coz I'm male!!

No worries matey.

Steve

 

[ranger08]

Metal tags with blind rivets seem to be the method of marking its very evident in the casting numbers

 

[ranger08]

Cheers Matt
Any ideas od thread - BSW?

Could you please explain this big difference in more detail? Thank you very much!

The Government stamp is from 1952, that means it was received into a Government store in 1952. It would of been given a Depo store tag. No store number or anything like that. As it had not assigned or allocated to a government department.

The C2 stamp is an odd one and what I can find out is cinfussing. With out any more details it is going to be difficult.

The arrow mark does not mean MOD or WD all the time. It just means it was/is goverment store or owned item.



When it would be allocated or issued it would of been given more stamps.

Who it was issued too, stores number, date of issue and all the other details to pin it to one branch of the government run organisations.



A classic example is in the old Naval stores under the hills near Bath. There are escalators marked up Euston station. Stamped BR and there stock number. That was painted over and a new plate added giving it the details of a RNAD Corsham. It was till there in 1999.



The N stamp.

That just mean it was cast in the metal the government spec for Naval use. Later it was reclassified as Maritine. Naval does not mean it will be issued to the Navy. It could of been. If it was it would be stamped up as such.



The GPO had boats, as did the London Fire brigade, as did Hull and Liverpool. So does the Army. The stamp was a brass plate added to a standard mould to identify it in the foundry as a Navy cast item. Each vice was cast as one unit. So the jaws were of the same cast.



The same ID plate was stamped out on a fly press and was normally in brass. I never found out what the different in the metals was. Nor could I find ant documentation. But when I was involved in the de-commission of The RNSD stores near Bath. We had so much information to hand, as each item had to be identified, logged and it's future path chosen.



The records were so detailed, that if we had a label it could be cross reference to a order. Then the men in suits would make up a hive mind to what was to happen to it.



One such box of hammers were stamped Broad arrow 1942 and the Russian government stamp. This was some of the many items left over from WW2 what was meant to be sent to the Russians.



The N was sometimes confused with the items for the up and coming reactors being built. But that “Private” money, but in real time it was not.



Later when the old departments from WW2 merged or were disbanded then you started

getting departmental stamps. Navy Army RAF GPO BTo name a few common ones.The GPO records of stock items were based on the RN method. Later our Armed forces started using a NATO stock numbers. 5 digits for NATO ID, followed by 2 digits for country. (99 was the UK) followed by a 7 digit part identifying number..

That is a good way to pin the dates down.



The odd one is the items for Parliament. They have their own method. It makes no sense to any one. The submarine periscope is listed as:

A Vertical optical chamber viewing unit Mk1.



When I was visiting the foundry in Fareham, were Tesco is now, they were still adding the brass pates to the government to a lot of their casting for the Navy items.

For the simple reason no one had updated the specs for those casting. This was in the late 1980’s.








The Government stamp is from 1952, that means it was received into a Government store in 1952. It would of been given a Depo store tag. No store number or anything like that. As it had not assigned or allocated to a government department.


The C2 stamp is an odd one and what I can find out is cinfussing. With out any more details it is going to be difficult.


The arrow mark does not mean MOD or WD all the time. It just means it was/is goverment store or owned item.





When it would be allocated or issued it would of been given more stamps.


Who it was issued too, stores number, date of issue and all the other details to pin it to one branch of the government run organisations.





A classic example is in the old Naval stores under the hills near Bath. There are escalators marked up Euston station. Stamped BR and there stock number. That was painted over and a new plate added giving it the details of a RNAD Corsham. It was till there in 1999.





The N stamp.


That just mean it was cast in the metal the government spec for Naval use. Later it was reclassified as Maritine. Naval does not mean it will be issued to the Navy. It could of been. If it was it would be stamped up as such.





The GPO had boats, as did the London Fire brigade, as did Hull and Liverpool. So does the Army. The stamp was a brass plate added to a standard mould to identify it in the foundry as a Navy cast item. Each vice was cast as one unit. So the jaws were of the same cast.





The same ID plate was stamped out on a fly press and was normally in brass. I never found out what the different in the metals was. Nor could I find ant documentation. But when I was involved in the de-commission of The RNSD stores near Bath. We had so much information to hand, as each item had to be identified, logged and it's future path chosen.





The records were so detailed, that if we had a label it could be cross reference to a order. Then the men in suits would make up a hive mind to what was to happen to it.





One such box of hammers were stamped Broad arrow 1942 and the Russian government stamp. This was some of the many items left over from WW2 what was meant to be sent to the Russians.





The N was sometimes confused with the items for the up and coming reactors being built. But that “Private” money, but in real time it was not.





Later when the old departments from WW2 merged or were disbanded then you started


getting departmental stamps. Navy Army RAF GPO BTo name a few common ones.The GPO records of stock items were based on the RN method. Later our Armed forces started using a NATO stock numbers. 5 digits for NATO ID, followed by 2 digits for country. (99 was the UK) followed by a 7 digit part identifying number..


That is a good way to pin the dates down.





The odd one is the items for Parliament. They have their own method. It makes no sense to any one. The submarine periscope is listed as:


A Vertical optical chamber viewing unit Mk1.





When I was visiting the foundry in Fareham, were Tesco is now, they were still adding the brass pates to the government to a lot of their casting for the Navy items.


For the simple reason no one had updated the specs for those casting. This was in the late 1980’s.

i think the full number stamp is C2855 the 8 is unclear and the C maybe a G,
thanks for all that information much appreciated

 

[StevieO]

I had also only posted my understanding here for verification .... This time I was probably right.




And of course you won't want to contradict her there .... is that why you have butchered my name?


No, no, no problem of course, I'm quite relaxed about it, but of course I couldn't miss that chance now.


Besides, the Yanks generally butcher the name and especially when they are supposed to speak it.

I then explain: How many CARS? TEN! Then it usually sounds somewhat recognisable and comes close to the truth at the moment btw.


Carsten

--

oops - sorry Mechanic..... typo!

 

[StevieO]

Metal tags with blind rivets seem to be the method of marking its very evident in the casting numbers
View attachment 354154View attachment 354155

Or maybe it's a .Z.
The Russians are coming............

 

[MattF]

The Russians are coming............

Or Zorro.

 

[FR518]

Absolutely over the moon I got my hands on these pair of beauty’s

 

[FR518]

 

[FR518]

 

[Screwdriver]

Absolutely over the moon I got my hands on these pair of beauty’s

They do look handsome. Good size too.

 

[SteveB58]

Metal tags with blind rivets seem to be the method of marking its very evident in the casting numbers
View attachment 354154View attachment 354155

Not necessarily rivets. We are seeing the casting from a wooden mold. I would suggest that the brass tag is merely held in place with a couple of pins and it is the image of their heads we see on the vice.
Steve