The British motor/motorcycle industry - discuss

[Rannsachair]

I can remember the article about the history of the ill-fated 350 Bandit /fury. The chief designer of world wide fame ( so famous I can't remember his name) was supposedly given a blank sheet to design a jap challenging m/c. The article then stated that he went to his desk and pulled out a pair of camshafts that he knew would be good. At the time I just said to myself " all down hill from that point". The japs when I worked for them would have taken a team out of the power products dept or cars etc and set them to work knowing they would produce some lemons but at least it would be new and could be sorted.. As it was the world beating 350 didn't quite make it passed an assembly line as the money tossers switched the line off. Could have been a good attempt . A friend installed a 500 Daytona motor in the rolling chassis and produced a cracking Middle weight bike. If only they had pursued the DOHC motor.

It was Edward Turner, they pulled him out of retirement to design it. What he did was powerful viby and unreliable, so they put Doug Hele and Bert Hopwood in to sort it out, redesigning the crank and valve gear and adding a 5 speed box. Triumph/BSA had kicked of production parts before it was sorted, so wasted a fortune when the project was stopped.

 

[Greeves246]

You can clearly see it’s a double knocker

Sad Case of the Triumph Bandit/BSA Fury 350: What Might Have Been

With development starting in 1968, the 350cc Triumph Bandit and its BSA Fury 350 counterpart were to hit the showrooms in the 1971 model year.

ultimatemotorcycling.com

 

[oldbikedavey]

You can clearly see it’s a double knocker

Sad Case of the Triumph Bandit/BSA Fury 350: What Might Have Been

With development starting in 1968, the 350cc Triumph Bandit and its BSA Fury 350 counterpart were to hit the showrooms in the 1971 model year.

ultimatemotorcycling.com

Enlarged to 500 + cc, and in that exceptional rolling chassis... well, that'd be interesting...

 

[redlig]

Yes the DOHC was a game changer for the demise of British bikes and even more so the 4 valve heads.

That and more gears / lights and electrics that worked /electric start / disc brakes /wet sump/disc brakes/ efficient oil filtration /engines that were ,in the main, easy to work on ,etc . Some of which were not "needed" but were irresistible when available .
Just read an article written by Roy Bacon in an old Motor cycle sport mag who propounded the idea of mating 2 of175 cc bantam engines to challenge the Yamasuki 2 strokes. Done properly I could see the sense along with a tidied up and improved Ariel Arrow. The potential and the expertise was there but not the vision. I believe there was a dungeon at bsa's full of prototypes that never saw the light of day.A few of which did eventually crawl into light when it was too late.I did spy a V 4 cylinder 2 stroke engine unit . The Quadrant for example. As a sales rep for NVT I visited a dev. shop somewhere in Brum and as I walked in I noticed leaning against a wall in the parking area a 4 cylinder bike complete with a pair of plimsoles strapped to the dual seat. Asked the question and was told it was a 4 cylinder trident one off. Begged a ride up the road and was blown away by it's performance. A few months later was made redundant and joined Big H and soon got used to big 4's etc. What a waste!

 

[minimutly]

350 Twins doing 90 all day long? Sounds a tall story to me, but we'll never know. I struggle to believe the uk bike industy would have been able to build relliable 4 cyl 16V, or even 8V engines?
The other thing I find fascinating is how 900cc plus bikes are now the norm, I wonder what the average size in UK use would be?

 

[redlig]

350 Twins doing 90 all day long? Sounds a tall story to me, but we'll never know. I struggle to believe the uk bike industy would have been able to build relliable 4 cyl 16V, or even 8V engines?
The other thing I find fascinating is how 900cc plus bikes are now the norm, I wonder what the average size in UK use would be?

I believe the Vanwall grand prix engine was basically 4 Manx Norton engines. But I could be wrong. It was one of the most sublime looking race cars ever produced. Also winner of the first world championship.

 

[redlig]

350 Twins doing 90 all day long? Sounds a tall story to me, but we'll never know. I struggle to believe the uk bike industy would have been able to build relliable 4 cyl 16V, or even 8V engines?
The other thing I find fascinating is how 900cc plus bikes are now the norm, I wonder what the average size in UK use would be?

Just had a thought ,perhaps one reason for the Japanese reliability is that they very rarely get driven hard unlike the British bikes which were forever ridden " harry flatters " to get anywhere at all.

 

[Rannsachair]

350 Twins doing 90 all day long? Sounds a tall story to me, but we'll never know. I struggle to believe the uk bike industy would have been able to build relliable 4 cyl 16V, or even 8V engines?
The other thing I find fascinating is how 900cc plus bikes are now the norm, I wonder what the average size in UK use would be?

In 1987 Triumph Hinkley made their first engine before going into production in 1991. Built in a new factory with modern machining centres I think they did build reliable engines. I agree BSA and Triumph did not have the manufacturing capability to manufacture a mass produced reliable 16v engine at an economical price in the 70's.

 

[minimutly]

Just had a thought ,perhaps one reason for the Japanese reliability is that they very rarely get driven hard unlike the British bikes which were forever ridden " harry flatters " to get anywhere at all.

That's because the Japanese made engines that made power, and didn't need to be on the limit all the time, and if they were, didn't break.
Crankshaft bearing clearances that were close, piston to bore, ohc, followers in honed bores, lightweight bits going around and up and down, it all made for smooth relliable production engines..

 

[Morrisman]

Didn’t they have a crude rocker arm,pivoted on a h/t stud?

The same as 100 million Chevy V8 motors, a pressed steel rocker arm pivoting on a stud, with a radiused nut to hold it all together.

 

[oldbikedavey]

I believe the Vanwall grand prix engine was basically 4 Manx Norton engines. But I could be wrong. It was one of the most sublime looking race cars ever produced. Also winner of the first world championship.

The Vanwall went way beyond that...
The Daimler Dart engine, though, was basically 4 650 Triumph twin engines as a V.8....

 

[oldbikedavey]

Just had a thought ,perhaps one reason for the Japanese reliability is that they very rarely get driven hard unlike the British bikes which were forever ridden " harry flatters " to get anywhere at all.

Japanese handling made sure of that.....

 

[redlig]

In 1987 Triumph Hinkley made their first engine before going into production in 1991. Built in a new factory with modern machining centres I think they did build reliable engines. I agree BSA and Triumph did not have the manufacturing capability to manufacture a mass produced reliable 16v engine at an economical price in the 70's.

Rumour at the time was that the Japs sent a team to Hinkley to sus out the facilities as it was more up to date than their's. But it may have been a scam rumour.

 

[redlig]

Japanese handling made sure of that.....

Wobble and weave .

 

[oldbikedavey]

Wobble and weave .

Slither and slide, crash and collide.....
Ha ! Borrocks !... As John Carpenter used to say, with a wry snigger....

 

[8ob]

Had a fair few Triumph twins over the years, mechanically they were always very good, rtv gasket goo coming on the scene helped sort most of the oil leak issues. I think Lucas and Wipac were the british bike industries biggest nemesis.

Bob

 

[Rannsachair]

Rumour at the time was that the Japs sent a team to Hinkley to sus out the facilities as it was more up to date than their's. But it may have been a scam rumour.

They bought Japanese machining centres, suspension, brakes and electrics, saw a few Japs when I was there.

 

[oldbikedavey]

On the subject of Very Fast 350's, I seem to remember that Velocette brought along a 350 to Montlhery in 1961, along with the 500 , and that it went extremely well for a very long time.
Mind you, they were Velocette, and everyone else could sod off.....

 

[redlig]

On the subject of Very Fast 350's, I seem to remember that Velocette brought along a 350 to Montlhery in 1961, along with the 500 , and that it went extremely well for a very long time.
Mind you, they were Velocette, and everyone else could sod off.....

I went to Montlhery in the early 20's and they ran that 500 velo again around the bowl ,on it's own and with the original open megga. You can not imagine the sound of the full throttle without shutting off for about 20 plus laps. When he came in there was a stunned silence before the ovation. Absolute magic .

 

[Keithmac]

I was under the impression Triumph built their new models in the UK for a year or more then outsourced production when all the snags were ironed out?.

Where are Triumph's factories based? Triumph has six-world class factories around the world. Two of these factories are based in Hinckley in the UK, just a stone's throw from the Mallory Park race track. There are also three factories in Chonburi, Thailand, and one in Manaus, Brazil.

Royal Enfield are good solid bikes, we were main dealers for many years when Watsonion Squire imported them. Still work on the newer models and they are decent quality, reliable.