Weld looks pretty bad for a pro

[Lee Cave]

So met with builder, welder and building control today. Explained all of my concerns, welder gets on the offensive and starts showing me pictures of the huge structures he's worked on and helicopter platforms he's welded on rigs and that he's worked on the Shard etc. He then starts giving me a lecture of how those welds would hold at least 60 ton etc. he would never put anyone in any danger.

Building control basically said, there is weld there, and the standard of weld wasnt his concern, yet I am the client and if I was not happy then I must go with what the engineer advises, not the welder.

I then speak to my engineer, who quickly sends through a sketch of a solution with 2 angles bolted/welded (properly) either side. Welder then concerned about how he will get into the space to do that and starts giving alternate suggestions that are pointless, like welding a plate to the underside of the 2 incoming beams, completely missing the point! Chippy and builder trying to work out how to cut the floor and roof joists away etc to allow access, I'm now more concerned that this idiot is suggesting he is going to remediate it, and potentially set fire to the place in the process, so I stop the circus and reconsult with my engineer to suggest a less desirable yet easier solution which would be to weld an angle from the column flange to underside of beams to provide additional bearing as the current one on the plate is only a few mm. I've subsiquently left the engineer now to work out a solution to this taking into consideration the potential bending effect on the "undersized" column installed and await his outcome.

I've now spoken with the builder in private and told him I do not want that welder doing this remediation work and want a graded welder or someone who knows what they are doing on the job, such as a reputable fabricator. I've only watched 3 YouTube videos on the subject and can easily now tell the difference between what is a decent weld and isn't.

I then come back later in the day to find the welder has filed the welds back to make them look tidier and painted them red! Wtf is that all about?

I'm now awaiting the drawings from the engineer to move forward.

Is there anyone in here that knows where I'll find a decent welder in the North East? Must be loads given the ship building heritage?

Thanks.

 

[Ashley Burton]

I would get in a welder who knows what they're doing! As this bloke is clearly a deluded idiot.

 

[dobbslc]

Even Barrett Homes would think that welding was poor!
But then again......
Seriously it's your house, tell the "welder" not to come back and waste anyone's else's time, maybe he could find work on a large sky scraper or something! I'm sure he'd last till breakfast before they sacked him.

 

[8ob]

I would get in a welder who knows what they're doing! As this bloke is clearly a deluded idiot.

The OP may struggle with that Ashley, he did mention he is in the north east

Playing devils advocate a bit here and not condoning the standard of work but some of those beams look like they are just sat on top of other beams. If that is the case the weld is just keeping them from moving while chippys and the like build off of them.

Bob

 

[zeppelin builder]

Even Barrett Homes would think that welding was poor!
But then again......
Seriously it's your house, tell the "welder" not to come back and waste anyone's else's time, maybe he could find work on a large sky scraper or something! I'm sure he'd last till breakfast before they sacked him.

its Sherlock homes you need to take this up
the welder is an insult to the trade
run him off the job asap

 

[addjunkie]

Might I suggest you point out to the builder hes not getting paid until the welds look like proper welds and show him some pictures of your expectations.

Becareful bringing in your own....he is your main contractor.

 

[Revs1972]

Things to do this week

1. Visit the Shard - cancelled
2. Visit an oil rig - cancelled

Sounds like the welder is full of himself. Met a load like that in the past. Usually when they came in through agency's as welders. A lot didn't get past the basic weld test.

BTW as a rule of thumb , 1 inch of decent 6 fillet weld will carry a ton of load. So he is a bit out with his assumptions there lol.

Good on you for sticking to your guns though .

As an insight of how a structural steel frame in developed.....( in my experience anyway)
The structural engineer provides the fabricator with the beam sizes and structural calculations. Usually, I would draw up the frame and send to the engineer for approval and they should check that I have used the correct end connections etc. Some fabricators take on end connection designs in house , but these should be sent to the engineer for reference and comments. At the end of the day the SE is providing the indemnity insurance on the design , so he should have a duty of care to check the design is being followed. Having witness the welding themselves , they should be ringing the alarm bells. If it fails , then along the line he would have to bear some of the responsibility. Sounds like he is trying to sort it out for you , but he will want paying. Make sure that doesn't come out of your pocket !

If it was my house , I would want to put the double angle cleats that the engineer proposes. It is doable, but you would need to create an access hole to get your arm in. I have found something like a 120mm x 120 mm opening is big enough got the largest of gorillas, sorry erectors to get their arm up. It would be a pain in the A to do , but it would be doable.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

There's no way on God's green Earth that that 'welder' ever worked on helicopter platforms offshore.

 

[gaz1]

im surprised BC wasnt his concern but i know a few BC officers that would refuse to pass off the job I suspect this would happen as goes for your engineer hes panicking as the job wasnt what was desired by the poor welds of coarse he would suggest angle irons even he can see those welds are crap

for start off thats going to be the most horriblest job going just getting the metal clean again for either welding it or even fitting plates onto the metal and bolting them
either way its going to be a nice price for it being done

for the work done already grind the sides you can get too off then weld through
on the beams you cant weld on other side then angle plate the outside

on the other beam as quoted above

? how thick is that column holding it all up another remedy is put a larger box section or steel beam

oh and welders done a cover up job to his work simple as

 

[Richard.]

“Welders” are the single worst breed of people in a trade for disliking criticism. I know because I’ve been and worked with them for long enough and they will say anything to justify the mess they make. But you did absolutely spot on and stuck to your guns. This guy isn’t a welder and he shouldn’t of taken the job on. I’m qualified highly enough (welding inspection cswip 3.2) to tell you all those welds are immediate failures because there is no such criteria I’ve ever seen or worked to that would contain such a poor acceptance level.
Going over the top of them dosent fix them either and neither does paint. It’s your house, it’s your money, your calling the shots. Tell them straight that the situation is rectified by another welder and you want to see minimum in date codes to 3F vertical up multipass before you let him near your house. Any codes stating the position above a 3 with a G/F would cover that work. 3F is minimum and does not cover butt/groved joints. These are asmexi codes. Bs codes will be different but still fine so long as they cover the work PF would be the position required as a minimum according to EN 9606. If you need help on this front ask before letting the person free on your house.

 

[Richard.]

Oh and I’m not defending the guy either here but it’s very important and your responsibility to provide a sufficient supply for the welding machine. If the machine won’t put out what it should the welder must immediately stop (his responsibility to do this) and inform you that the supply isn’t good enough. No welder on God’s green earth is going to burn a 3.2 rod to any standard if the current is been drastically effected. All those defects in the welding could very possibly be down to the fact the machine was not at all happy on your provided supply in which case you hire a generator for him. He’s still at fault even if this was the case as he should of stopped and refused to carry on until it was right. But it’s a common problem and one you need to be aware of.

 

[Revs1972]

Oh and I’m not defending the guy either here but it’s very important and your responsibility to provide a sufficient supply for the welding machine. If the machine won’t put out what it should the welder must immediately stop (his responsibility to do this) and inform you that the supply isn’t good enough. No welder on God’s green earth is going to burn a 3.2 rod to any standard if the current is been drastically effected. All those defects in the welding could very possibly be down to the fact the machine was not at all happy on your provided supply in which case you hire a generator for him. He’s still at fault even if this was the case as he should of stopped and refused to carry on until it was right. But it’s a common problem and one you need to be aware of.

Richard, surely it's the fabricators / welders responsibility to provide a suitable power source ? The whole thing should have been bolted in my opinion but it sounds like they have circumnavigated the CE by site fabbing.
If I sent my boys out on a job that involved welding and the cutomers power source wasn't up to it, then it would be my responsibility to provide them with something that was.

 

[Rig Pig]

So met with builder, welder and building control today. Explained all of my concerns, welder gets on the offensive and starts showing me pictures of the huge structures he's worked on and helicopter platforms he's welded on rigs and that he's worked on the Shard etc. He then starts giving me a lecture of how those welds would hold at least 60 ton etc. he would never put anyone in any danger.

Building control basically said, there is weld there, and the standard of weld wasnt his concern, yet I am the client and if I was not happy then I must go with what the engineer advises, not the welder.

I then speak to my engineer, who quickly sends through a sketch of a solution with 2 angles bolted/welded (properly) either side. Welder then concerned about how he will get into the space to do that and starts giving alternate suggestions that are pointless, like welding a plate to the underside of the 2 incoming beams, completely missing the point! Chippy and builder trying to work out how to cut the floor and roof joists away etc to allow access, I'm now more concerned that this idiot is suggesting he is going to remediate it, and potentially set fire to the place in the process, so I stop the circus and reconsult with my engineer to suggest a less desirable yet easier solution which would be to weld an angle from the column flange to underside of beams to provide additional bearing as the current one on the plate is only a few mm. I've subsiquently left the engineer now to work out a solution to this taking into consideration the potential bending effect on the "undersized" column installed and await his outcome.

I've now spoken with the builder in private and told him I do not want that welder doing this remediation work and want a graded welder or someone who knows what they are doing on the job, such as a reputable fabricator. I've only watched 3 YouTube videos on the subject and can easily now tell the difference between what is a decent weld and isn't.

I then come back later in the day to find the welder has filed the welds back to make them look tidier and painted them red! Wtf is that all about?

I'm now awaiting the drawings from the engineer to move forward.

Is there anyone in here that knows where I'll find a decent welder in the North East? Must be loads given the ship building heritage?

Thanks.

That sort of welding on a rig would earn him a private helicopter home!

 

[Richard.]

suitable power source ?

Power source yes, supply for the power source I’d say that’s down to the site

 

[Kent]

Electric supply too poor - stop! It's that simple.
Of course mechanical fastenings could be explored to fix this also.

Whatever it 100% needs sorting

 

[Kent]

So met with builder, welder and building control today. Explained all of my concerns, welder gets on the offensive and starts showing me pictures of the huge structures he's worked on and helicopter platforms he's welded on rigs and that he's worked on the Shard etc. He then starts giving me a lecture of how those welds would hold at least 60 ton etc. he would never put anyone in any danger.

Building control basically said, there is weld there, and the standard of weld wasnt his concern, yet I am the client and if I was not happy then I must go with what the engineer advises, not the welder.

I then speak to my engineer, who quickly sends through a sketch of a solution with 2 angles bolted/welded (properly) either side. Welder then concerned about how he will get into the space to do that and starts giving alternate suggestions that are pointless, like welding a plate to the underside of the 2 incoming beams, completely missing the point! Chippy and builder trying to work out how to cut the floor and roof joists away etc to allow access, I'm now more concerned that this idiot is suggesting he is going to remediate it, and potentially set fire to the place in the process, so I stop the circus and reconsult with my engineer to suggest a less desirable yet easier solution which would be to weld an angle from the column flange to underside of beams to provide additional bearing as the current one on the plate is only a few mm. I've subsiquently left the engineer now to work out a solution to this taking into consideration the potential bending effect on the "undersized" column installed and await his outcome.

I've now spoken with the builder in private and told him I do not want that welder doing this remediation work and want a graded welder or someone who knows what they are doing on the job, such as a reputable fabricator. I've only watched 3 YouTube videos on the subject and can easily now tell the difference between what is a decent weld and isn't.

I then come back later in the day to find the welder has filed the welds back to make them look tidier and painted them red! Wtf is that all about?

I'm now awaiting the drawings from the engineer to move forward.

Is there anyone in here that knows where I'll find a decent welder in the North East? Must be loads given the ship building heritage?

Thanks.

So did he do on those projects? Paint them because he sure as hell could not put in welds like those and remain on the job ! No ifs but or maybe the other lads would stop a guy who welded like that

 

[Revs1972]

Power source yes, supply for the power source I’d say that’s down to the site

Personally , if I know there is welding required on a job, then I will ask the site what power they have and find out if it is suitable for what we need to use it for . That would be done well in advance of going to site.
That would be my responsibility, not the customers.
If their supply is not up to it, (or they don't know) , then I would send the guys out suitably equipped to do the job. Between us we have engine driven, battery and inverter welders capable of running off 13amp, so have most instances covered.

 

[Revs1972]

To me , that whole mess is down to the main contractor.
You employ them to look after your interests, to oversee the bits that make up the build. Personally I wouldn't trust the OP's builder as far as I could throw him.
There are a lot out there who frankly don't have a clue, they have their own businesses because they wouldn't get employment anywhere else .
That said, there are plenty of quality, conscientious ones out there

 

[Lee Cave]

Just to note, these are big (small) builders in the scheme if things with over 1.5M cash at bank, which is unusual for small extention builders. They have a whole army of staff of various disciplines working for them. That being said I don't necessarily think that's a good thing now and if I were to do this again would invest in an independent PM to run the job rather than the builder. There are some snags to remediate, like any project, yet I am happy on the most part of how things have gone. Just wish I knew the small amount of info I know now back then and it would not have been as big of an issue as it is now.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

Just to note, these are big (small) builders in the scheme if things with over 1.5M cash at bank, which is unusual for small extention builders.

To me, that says that they overcharge their client base in relation to the standard of workmanship from the various [sub'd] disciplines they deliver/'buy in' on the cheap for each contract.