Welding sill advice needed

[normspanners]

Apart from serious defect oversight's, Testers get more disciplinary action for failing something that is not actually fail able.
Ie they fail ball joints when there is only slight play in reality on a scale 0-10 if 0 is new and 10 is falling off they should still pass at 8.
in fact many year ago I had to attend a complaint check of a tested car. A guy had bought a car that i had tested and taken it to a local non mot garage who checked the vehicle over and told him the car was dangerous worn trackrod ends, steering joints, brake discs pipes ARB links, etc etc. I attended and the car was moted by two ministry men, and I was s****g it in the corner !! when they had done the test they gave me their results and they totally agreed with my findings, worn but acceptable. in those days I used to fill in and keep my own note pad for every car with their advises, I had advised the previous owner of all the worn parts. and actually showed the mot guys the note pad, the original owner sold the car with 12mths mot. the new owner was bouncing with the mot guys saying he had bought the car with 12mths mot, so it should be perfect, no sir it is an old worn car, it is up to YOU to keep it safe. was the reply.

 

[steviec_lj]

It's an MOT fail if it isn't covered up.

Since when? I've presented a number of vehicles for tests, at a range of MOT stations with patches welded in, still the bare zintec steel on most of them as it was a 15 minute patch, then retest.

I've also presented vehicles with patches welded in as per the original construction. A sill is seam welded across the top of the patch, and down the sides, but where it meets the inner sill/jacking point/etc. its been plug welded with the plugs still proud. Not one of the stations has said anything about the patches, or how they'd been welded in, or for that matter that most of them were still bare steel.

 

[delcbr]

I believe what everyone is saying here but it is conflicting. Years ago my fathers car failed it's Mot on corrosion so he cut it out welded in new section and under sealed it. When he went fir retest they told him they could not pass it unless he scraped off all the new underseal do they could inspect the welding. Also on the point of brake pipes the sane car I am welding on failed on rear brake pipes iv inspected it and it's very slight corrosion with flaky paint so iv cleaned it up and smoothed it off. But I heard mot testers get ****** off with cars with grease and oil in brake pipes because they have to clean it off to inspect it and they go out their way to fail it if it ****** them off. But previous poster mentions they aren't allowed to remove grease to inspect. So iv cleaned up the brake pipes now and applied Kurust rust killer how should I proceed from here? Is there a good black paint to apply or just go straight to grease once it's been motd?

 

[the snooper]

an mot tester isn't allowed to remove anything at all, not even lift a carpet and new rules recently came out if they cant see it they have to pass it, some testers like to think they are god and try to make people remove underseal but they cant do it legally, the vans brake pipes a purposely covered in grease to slow down corrosion and its never a problem come mot time

 

[Rocketman]

Since when? I've presented a number of vehicles for tests, at a range of MOT stations with patches welded in, still the bare zintec steel on most of them as it was a 15 minute patch, then retest.

You miss understood. It was with concern to the seam welding. Basically if the welding job is covered = filled and top coated the MOTer can't see anything so he can't pass comment on the repair.

Obviously you can present a repair job bare metal.

 

[the snooper]

Apart from serious defect oversight's, Testers get more disciplinary action for failing something that is not actually fail able.
Ie they fail ball joints when there is only slight play in reality on a scale 0-10 if 0 is new and 10 is falling off they should still pass at 8.
in fact many year ago I had to attend a complaint check of a tested car. A guy had bought a car that i had tested and taken it to a local non mot garage who checked the vehicle over and told him the car was dangerous worn trackrod ends, steering joints, brake discs pipes ARB links, etc etc. I attended and the car was moted by two ministry men, and I was s****g it in the corner !! when they had done the test they gave me their results and they totally agreed with my findings, worn but acceptable. in those days I used to fill in and keep my own note pad for every car with their advises, I had advised the previous owner of all the worn parts. and actually showed the mot guys the note pad, the original owner sold the car with 12mths mot. the new owner was bouncing with the mot guys saying he had bought the car with 12mths mot, so it should be perfect, no sir it is an old worn car, it is up to YOU to keep it safe. was the reply.

most people think like that but an mot is only a snapshot of the condition regarding safety and they don't seem to understand that

 

[AndyStobbs]

90% of welding jobs are to eek another year out of a vehicle. You could literally glue the patches on and have it pass.
On the MIG brazing front, is gas brazing allowed or not?

 

[Robotstar5]

an mot tester isn't allowed to remove anything at all, not even lift a carpet and new rules recently came out if they cant see it they have to pass it...

When I took Mrs Robo's Freelander for an MOT a few years ago, the tester put an advisory on as some testable components were obscured by the (factory fit) engine undertray.

 

[normspanners]

In reality as far as I am concerned gas brazing is perfectly adequate, strong and flexible, ideal, morgan 3 wheelers the real ones, (not the modern c**p that hasnt got any real steering geometry design) where totally brazed frames FOR STRENGTH!!
in his day mr morgan was a clever chap. I have seen some horrendous vintage racing crashes and the steel breaks not the braze.
but to the letter of the mot law brazing is not allowed, UNLESS brazed at that point originally ie welded every where else and brazed where brazed. A lot of older cars were brazed in stressed areas, window b /c posts door posts etc. where the doors slam too and crack welded joints.
I dont see the problem especialy on joggled joints where brazing would be perfect not much panel distortion etc etc, ideal for joining bottom sill panel to a top section. I also think a lot are repaired that way then undersealed over.
I would not go out of my way to fail it.

 

[Bill Edwards]

I think it should be noted that, although I'm quite sure normspanners has the correct approach to all this, along with most testers, as with everything there will be bad testers.

By this I mean those who try to get you to remove underseal etc, who fail anything that shows the slightest bit of movement and who let anything pass regardless.
Thankfully I'm sure these testers are few and far between but it is inevitable that some horror stories will always be told.

 

[Daz1968]

I have always interpreted the rules as if a panel was patched then seam weld, and any joints to existing panels that were spot welded I have tried to replicate these spot welds as best as I can, I have always dressed welds and filled areas to make repair as invisible as possible. With this approach I have never been questioned at any mot tests, in fact totally the opposite and have had compliments on the repairs. I wouldn't try to cover anything unsafe but then the tester has a hard job to inspect well concealed repairs, the visible patch repairs are what I class as quick bodge jobs to extend the useful life of a car, I also ensure any drain holes or slots are present to prevent future reoccurrence of the same problem.

 

[Wedg1e]

I love having a fibreglass car

 

[agrimog]

you are not allowed to braze or gas weld a modern car ...they are built with thinner gauge high strength steels, and the heat from gas destroys the strength, mig, or spot welds only, a good tester will fail a gas weld due to saftey comprimised.

if the standard of "home repairs" doesnt get better, I forsee the complete banning of diy welding repairs on cars presented for MOT tests......lets go buy a £50 welder and fix this 1ton missile, I've watched you tube and it looks easy, god, I can slap some filler on it, nobody will ever know.........till its involved in an accident and somebodys killed......end of rant.........beginners , stick to garden furniture and bbq's, leave the vehicles to those who know what there doing

 

[Rocketman]

you are not allowed to braze or gas weld a modern car ...they are built with thinner gauge high strength steels, and the heat from gas destroys the strength, mig, or spot welds only, a good tester will fail a gas weld due to saftey comprimised.

if the standard of "home repairs" doesnt get better, I forsee the complete banning of diy welding repairs on cars presented for MOT tests......lets go buy a £50 welder and fix this 1ton missile, I've watched you tube and it looks easy, god, I can slap some filler on it, nobody will ever know.........till its involved in an accident and somebodys killed......end of rant.........beginners , stick to garden furniture and bbq's, leave the vehicles to those who know what there doing

Think I will get the pop corn ready.

 

[Daz1968]

I must say I find the opposite, most garages do a mot standard patch repair which is no where near good enough for a restoration and often involves patching over rust and not completely cutting it out.

 

[normspanners]

you are not allowed to braze or gas weld a modern car

mot manuel

· MIG brazing, a combination of adhesive bonding and riveting, or amalgamations of these with other joining methods may be the vehicle manufacturers recommended method of repair. Such repairs must therefore be accepted unless they are clearly inadequate.

a good tester will fail a gas weld due to saftey comprimised.

mot manuel

Gas brazing, soldering, adhesive bonding, fibre reinforcement and body filler are bonding processes and are not regarded as strong enough for repairs to load bearing members although they are normally adequate for other repair work. It is accepted that it is sometimes difficult to identify the repair method after the repair has been covered in paint or underseal. If the method of repair is in doubt the tester should pass and advise.

There is nothing mentioned about gas welding in the MOT manual, and it is acceptable, so a good tester should pass and advise. As per the manual.

leave the vehicles to those who know what there doing

Hum!

 

[normspanners]

I have watched a few old school, as far as I am concerned proper body repairers, work and some will not use mig because it is not controlable, they use gas welding to let in new pieces and can do it without a ripple, I was in awe of one old guy he could gas weld a patch in the middle of a complex panel with hardly any noticeable distortion then would float/rub a few thou of solder over the repair, file down and sand
I asked him how, and he said he didnt know how he did it, obviously years of practice, he just did it, but one thing he did say was, he never stopped welding till the end of the complete patch.

 

[Jan]

Some years ago I had an Audi Estate with self-levelling rear suspension. I wasn't too happy with the visual condition of the hydraulic pipes on the system, so I treated them with hydroflouric acid and followed up with a coat of Kurust. Once dry they were washed thoroughly and sprayed with clear underseal. The MOT advisory stated they were 'lightly corroded, but serviceable for this year only'. Although I didn't touch them again I got the same advisory for the next 3 years!

 

[atomant48]

I have watched a few old school, as far as I am concerned proper body repairers, work and some will not use mig because it is not controlable, they use gas welding to let in new pieces and can do it without a ripple, I was in awe of one old guy he could gas weld a patch in the middle of a complex panel with hardly any noticeable distortion then would float/rub a few thou of solder over the repair, file down and sand
I asked him how, and he said he didnt know how he did it, obviously years of practice, he just did it, but one thing he did say was, he never stopped welding till the end of the complete patch.

Norm, when I finish my resto, if there is still petrol in the world and we still need MOTs, I hope you're still in the trade and I will bring it for a test! Your approach is refreshing to read.

 

[normspanners]

Interesting reading

Bodyshop - Boron debate heats up
A metropolitan police chief has ordered the first ever inquiry into the road safety dangers of incorrectly repaired vehicles. Commander Shabir Hussain has asked his accident investigators to look out for evidence that faulty work on ultra high strength and boron steel components has contributed to road accidents.

His move follows an approach by bodyshop industry campaigner John Dwyer, himself a former police officer. Dwyer, former Cheshire assistant chief constable, claims that less than a quarter of the UK’s 5,500 garage bodyshops are equipped to repair cars containing the new high strength steels.

Meanwhile, in a separate development, Thatcham crash repair centre has announced its intention to formulate a standard for crash repair methods. “With vehicle design becoming ever more complex, model-specific repair methods are vital if cars are to be reinstated to pre-accident condition with the original construction integrity and safety features,” said Thatcham.

Commander Hussain’s move prompted a warning from RAC Services that fleet managers are taking “pot luck” if they choose repair shops at random.
Phil Mairs, head of RAC Services, said: “Fleets can’t be expected to know how to vet a potential repairer, which is why it’s essential to tap into an approved repairer network. Those buying repair services should be looking for the BSI PAS 125 Kitemark for vehicle body repair.”

Different equipment
John Dwyer, who now runs a business protection and security business, began his safety campaign last year after learning that repairs to UHSS and boron steel components – found in the majority of modern cars – required different welding equipment to that operated by many bodyshops.

“Welding experts have informed me that welds created with the wrong type of equipment would fail in the event of a subsequent accident and could even come apart from normal road vibration,” said Dwyer at the time.

“I now have every confidence that Commander Hussain and his team will look into this issue very thoroughly and I am looking forward to their findings.”

Speaking at a Refinish Industry Survey conference earlier this year, Dwyer acknowledged that the new PAS 125 standard for body repair was “a step in the right direction”, but noted that it was a voluntary measure.

“It needs to be driven by compulsive measures and regulations,” he said. “There is also a need for some type of vehicle passport showing any repair history – the date and type of repair and who carried it out.”
Explaining the reasons for Thatcham’s decision to draw up a standard for crash repair methods, chief executive Peter Roberts said: “Current methods are produced in a variety of formats and we are becoming increasingly concerned at the efficacy of these methods which in some cases are inadequate and not comprehensive in their coverage of specific repair techniques.”

Woeful lack of training
While vehicle assembly and materials continue to grow more complex, a recent bodyshop survey gives a damning picture of training provision for body repair.
Findings showed that 44% of independent bodyshops have no apprentices; neither do 46% of garages or 27% of franchised dealers.
Overall around 70% to 80% of bodyshops do not send staff on training programmes.

2007 Refinish Industry Survey, published by Plenham (£495). To order a copy, contact Claire Steers on 01296 642820 or email Claire@bodyshopmag.com

GM highlights repair dangers
General Motors has introduced a newsletter, ‘Accident Repair’, to keep bodyshops and insurance companies up to date on repair demands for its Chevrolet, Saab and Vauxhall vehicles.

The company points out that nearly all European-made vehicles now use ultra high strength and boron steel in chassis legs, B pillar strengtheners and the main occupant cage. Mild steel in the new Corsa is 25% lower than in the previous range.

“Incorrect repair of structures can have serious consequences in the event of a further accident, such as failure of airbag deployment,” says a company statement.