Welding sill advice needed

[normspanners]

and this regarding cutting door pillars etc on boron steel cars http://www.resqmed.com/BoronSteel1.pdf

 

[normspanners]

This might help some people and frighten others

Boron steel is a new type of steel used in the manufacture of a modern vehicles safety cell. The steel is part of the martesinic family of steels.

Its Characteristics are that it has a very high strength to weight ratio so is perfect for the modern vehicle designer who wishes to improve the strength of the safety cell on a vehicle, whilst also keeping the shells weight to a minimum.

The trouble with this martesinic steel is that it is severely affected by heat . Overheating changes the molecular structure of the steel and it loses its strength.

Panel technicians know about this material but dont actually work with it a lot , or so they think!

They know that Boron, or Acelor /Uzibor cannot be sawn through or even drilled with a standard zip drill so if they are drilling a panel off and it drills easily they carry on as normal not suspecting anything.

The trouble is BORON or UHSS steels are placed mainly in the B pillars and wheel arches of a vehicle and are found BEHIND another panel, This design helps to stop the accident travelling further into the vehicle and also allows for softer more maleable steel to be placed in front to give the vehicles shape/design.

The panel technicians know that boron cannot be sawn through or drilled through so if they remove the outer B pillar and they can drill through it they they presume that its just normal steel and join it back with no consideration of the steel they are joining it too.

This creates a problem in event of too much heat used. It can also create a problem when drilling off as this can weaken the original spot welds if you drill too aggressively.

This is where the problem arises as they dont realise that when they are drilling and removing the outer B pillar from the vehicle the could be damaging the boron strengthener underneath so affecting the strength and integrity of the repaired vehicle.

Panel personel need to be aware of the whole joint they are working on so as to repair ethically and safely without affecting the whole panels strength characteristics.

Boron alone doesnt stop the accident , its the outer panel ,the Boron and the inner panel of the B pillar acting together that creates the required strength.

NEVER section in a strengthener this creates a shear point in the section (as shown )

 

[delcbr]

Some years ago I had an Audi Estate with self-levelling rear suspension. I wasn't too happy with the visual condition of the hydraulic pipes on the system, so I treated them with hydroflouric acid and followed up with a coat of Kurust. Once dry they were washed thoroughly and sprayed with clear underseal. The MOT advisory stated they were 'lightly corroded, but serviceable for this year only'. Although I didn't touch them again I got the same advisory for the next 3 years!

Clear underseal where can I get that?

 

[delcbr]

if the standard of "home repairs" doesnt get better, I forsee the complete banning of diy welding repairs on cars presented for MOT tests......lets go buy a £50 welder and fix this 1ton missile, I've watched you tube and it looks easy, god, I can slap some filler on it, nobody will ever know.........till its involved in an accident and somebodys killed......end of rant.........beginners , stick to garden furniture and bbq's, leave the vehicles to those who know what there doing

Your post isnt relevant to this thread and is derogatory. I do know how to weld but I don't want a crappy patch put over it and to pay through the nose so that's why I am on here.

 

[Rocketman]

This might help some people and frighten others

Norm I had brought this up a couple of months ago about the 'exotic steels' being used and the ability to repair them or when they start needing work to repair/remove rusted areas.

I believe Mazda were the first to use ultra high tensile steel at the 1800mpa range.

 

[Jan]

Clear underseal where can I get that?

Dunno, but it was a standard version of 'Waxoyl' a few years ago. I can't say whether it's still available.
Ps. In practice it did (does?) have a slight colouration which only showed up in heavy applications.

 

[Bill Edwards]

Yes, you can buy clear waxoyl, there are also other brands that do the same job (or, according to some, better - not all rate waxoyl that highly).

 

[PhillipM]

Bilt Hamber do a clear version IIRC. Might be underbody wax, can't remember exactly.

 

[Jan]

It's a sad reflection on modern economics that what was once the best ... whatever ... may have sunk so low, through a reduction in quality, that it may have been surpassed by previously inferior alternatives or newer products in the same field.

 

[PhillipM]

I think it's more a case of it's never really changed, materials advancement over the last 40 years has been incredible.

 

[Jan]

Perhaps. But why do so many claim that Waxoyl, Nitromors, WD40, etc aren't what they used to be?

 

[premmington]

Your post isnt relevant to this thread and is derogatory. I do know how to weld but I don't want a crappy patch put over it and to pay through the nose so that's why I am on here.

Hold this thought....! I have been a motor mechanic for 32 years, I own my own garage. I have seen thousands, no near millions of rusty cars with holes in them over the years. I have seen some very good welding repairs and some awfull bodged up abortions. But in all that time... I have only ever recovered in one car that had collapsed due to corrosion. One early Toyota petrol pick up truck "sort of snapped in half". It was owned by a shell fish fishing boat owner. The salt water draining from the bags of shrimps and cockles rotted it away.

1. I don't think corosion is such a risk as we all think it is! 300mm from suspension and seat belt mounts could well be 150mm and still be safe!

2. Diy welding repairs when we test them tend to look very good as a rule.

3. All these modern boron metal cars will have burned the electronics out before the body shell starts corroding away.

4. The only valid point I can see which has been mentioned is about accident damage repairs made by bodyshop centres. I have seen some huge mig tacked shell repairs being filled over. I am not talking about wing replacement. I mean rear quarters, bulkheads, roofs and floors. Mig spotted together, weld "blobs" ground down and filled. I am talking about the major structure of the car "tacked together and filled over". This has to be more dangerous than a rust hole on the sill being welded all around.

5. The VIC check system may have stopped "car ringers". But it has done nothing to stop a semi skilled painter covering up un-safe vehicle structure repairs.

Risk for risk... I think the current UK tyre law. Part worns and aged tyres cause more accidents than rust ever has or ever will...

 

[steviec_lj]

A VIC check will not stop un-safe vehicle structure repairs. That's not what they're interested in. A VIC check is quite simply put, a Vehicle Identity Check.

They check that a vehicle is actually that vehicle being presented.

 

[premmington]

A VIC check will not stop un-safe vehicle structure repairs. That's not what they're interested in. A VIC check is quite simply put, a Vehicle Identity Check.

They check that a vehicle is actually that vehicle being presented.

You are right! VIC check is just for the VIN number and the date on the ashtray moulding.

The MOT can't sift out the unsafe repaired cars off the road, because they cannot see the repairs for all the filler and two pack paint.

The insurance industry should take more responsibilty. They have purse strings. Basically they nail the labour rates so low and so short you could not repair a heavy accident damaged car properly and make a profit if you wanted to.

 

[normspanners]

Risk for risk... I think the current UK tyre law. Part worns and aged tyres cause more accidents than rust ever has or ever will...

Yep the crazy thing about tread depth is a class 4 minibus needs 1.6 mm tread but a class 7 with more seats only needs 1mm !! maybe it wont aquaplane with twice as many people holding it down.
Ps i have recovered hundreds of damaged cars and only seen a couple were the corrosion has affected the outcome. never seen a seatbelt mount ripped out or a broken seat belt coz it has a little fray on it.
BUT BUT Have picked up loads were ridicules designs have caused problems, ie small strut platforms that if a road spring breaks it causes total loss of suspension on one side and the spring is forced to travel down the strut and slash tyres , brake hoses, or jam steering racks,
ball joints that pull on the joint so when they do get close to being worn out the spring/vehicle weight rips them apart and the ball is torn from it socket with no warning at 70mph but you cannot hear any knocks or rattles to warn you because of the loading on them. Or the classic now is the steering and brake servos on some auto cars is so ridiculously heavy, if engine cuts out or the alternator stops a lot of woman and some men cannot steer or stop the cars. because of the difference between engine on and engine stopped. with the engine stopped the steering is nearly solid. for example with My lads vxr corsa I REALLY struggled to steer it when the engine was dead, it was terrible two hands on one side of the wheel to JUST make it turn a little , we are not talkin a truck here but a little 1000kg corsa. A lot of these type of faults that cause accidents are TOTALLY OVERLOOKED by the ministry. The designers should carry the can, but dont.

 

[PhillipM]

Perhaps. But why do so many claim that Waxoyl, Nitromors, WD40, etc aren't what they used to be?

For Nitromors, etc, it's the banning of the strong solvents they were using, in fact I think nitromors is water based now?

 

[Rocketman]

Hold this thought....! I have been a motor mechanic for 32 years, I own my own garage. I have seen thousands, no near millions of rusty cars with holes in them over the years. I have seen some very good welding repairs and some awfull bodged up abortions. But in all that time... I have only ever recovered in one car that had collapsed due to corrosion. One early Toyota petrol pick up truck "sort of snapped in half". It was owned by a shell fish fishing boat owner. The salt water draining from the bags of shrimps and cockles rotted it away.

1. I don't think corosion is such a risk as we all think it is! 300mm from suspension and seat belt mounts could well be 150mm and still be safe!

2. Diy welding repairs when we test them tend to look very good as a rule.

3. All these modern boron metal cars will have burned the electronics out before the body shell starts corroding away.

4. The only valid point I can see which has been mentioned is about accident damage repairs made by bodyshop centres. I have seen some huge mig tacked shell repairs being filled over. I am not talking about wing replacement. I mean rear quarters, bulkheads, roofs and floors. Mig spotted together, weld "blobs" ground down and filled. I am talking about the major structure of the car "tacked together and filled over". This has to be more dangerous than a rust hole on the sill being welded all around.

5. The VIC check system may have stopped "car ringers". But it has done nothing to stop a semi skilled painter covering up un-safe vehicle structure repairs.

Risk for risk... I think the current UK tyre law. Part worns and aged tyres cause more accidents than rust ever has or ever will...

You know that is 600 rusty cars a week you look at for a million?

The real danger with rusty cars is that the safety protection is severely reduced with the lack of strength in a crash.

 

[normspanners]

You know that is 600 rusty cars a week you look at for a million?

reminds me of the halfords avert' How many cars do you think you have fixed Clive' '9972 Colin'

1min in

 

[premmington]

You know that is 600 rusty cars a week you look at for a million?

The real danger with rusty cars is that the safety protection is severely reduced with the lack of strength in a crash.

Millions! Maybe not that many! But we have three premises and 19 ramps! We do get thru several cars!

 

[premmington]

Yep the crazy thing about tread depth is a class 4 minibus needs 1.6 mm tread but a class 7 with more seats only needs 1mm !! maybe it wont aquaplane with twice as many people holding it down.
Ps i have recovered hundreds of damaged cars and only seen a couple were the corrosion has affected the outcome. never seen a seatbelt mount ripped out or a broken seat belt coz it has a little fray on it.
BUT BUT Have picked up loads were ridicules designs have caused problems, ie small strut platforms that if a road spring breaks it causes total loss of suspension on one side and the spring is forced to travel down the strut and slash tyres , brake hoses, or jam steering racks,
ball joints that pull on the joint so when they do get close to being worn out the spring/vehicle weight rips them apart and the ball is torn from it socket with no warning at 70mph but you cannot hear any knocks or rattles to warn you because of the loading on them. Or the classic now is the steering and brake servos on some auto cars is so ridiculously heavy, if engine cuts out or the alternator stops a lot of woman and some men cannot steer or stop the cars. because of the difference between engine on and engine stopped. with the engine stopped the steering is nearly solid. for example with My lads vxr corsa I REALLY struggled to steer it when the engine was dead, it was terrible two hands on one side of the wheel to JUST make it turn a little , we are not talkin a truck here but a little 1000kg corsa. A lot of these type of faults that cause accidents are TOTALLY OVERLOOKED by the ministry. The designers should carry the can, but dont.

Oh... How true the above is! Very acurate!