What MIG to buy (Professional)

[superclarkey]

Sounds similar to me, self taught on everything from welding to machining to CNC to building CNC's, always trying different settings and different ways and the day I stop learning will be the day I die.

Haha yeah, thing is you do sometimes get that push back from people, which I do all the time which normally goes like "your over thinking it" or "that doesn't really matter" or "why do you need to know that" haha.

Its frustrating because with my motorsport stuff I always joke and say when I didn't know much when I was younger it was great as I always had someone to look upto... problem is now, when I get to something I can't work out its normally over the heads of everyone I know and its such a good question that many people just look at you like your wasting your life trying to solve it... haha. but I find if you keep going and work it out.. you end up being the specialist that people ask you the questions..

End of the day, reason I'm good at my job and people come to me and let me build their cars is because of that mindset, the amount of times I've told something isn't possible and worked it out is allot... I've also made good money off making products no one else sells because they didn't have the time to give to work out the issues.

Being like this is great for self learning and working out the world, but you'll never make many friends on the way as you'll just be called "fussy" "Anal" "takes it to another level" "over the top" haha

My engine machine shop hates me, because where everyone else walks in with "can you just do this, and look at that", I'm like here is the data sheets I want you to follow, I need this done to that and here is the order of operations... and the worst bit is I have all the gear to check their work so if its out of specs they are forced to do it again. Most engine builders just are assemblers and don't check anything and put it together trusting its machined properly... more you know, more you realise how important all this is!

Bottom line, I do what I want to do, everyone else can go get stuffed

I'm normally the worst customer you can have because I will ask so many questions before buying that you'll want to just block my number (little warning for those out there haha)

Anyways going off on massive rants about rubbish haha back on topic

 

[stuvy]

What cars do you build?
Any pics?

 

[Hood]

The thing I love about what I do is I solve problems or work out ways to do things or improve on things, sometimes can't sleep at night due to ideas buzzing around in my head

 

[superclarkey]

What cars do you build?
Any pics?

Just grab some randoms off my laptop to give you an idea of what I do, both Mig and TIG.

 

[superclarkey]

Few more haha.

 

[Munkul]

OK, all I can say is, you're probably on the right track to begin with, you have a good brand and a good dealer

All of these machines mentioned in this thread are very customisable. The Kempact I'm not so sure on but the new MasterMigs certainly seem to offer everything you'd want.

I still think you should take a trip up to Cannock, though. Even if you don't end up buying one, Matt will show you what's possible and it will open up your eyes. You'll see instantly what might work or not work for the stuff you do, and decide if it adds value.
You'll then be able to translate those processes into other brands versions, e.g. wiseroot or fastroot X is Kemppi, RMD is Miller, STT is Lincoln.

Yes I mentioned pipe welding earlier and you think it's way different to welding roll cages and intakes... but it isn't really. You want a controllable process that gives little spatter and works out-of-position. It's what everyone wants to be honest.

The other nice thing about advanced processes is that it widens the usable range of a wire size so you can make it work well on everything.

 

[Munkul]

If I may, your business is centered on quality, not quantity
Its worth remembering that even a £20k fully loaded MIG from Fronius won't fully replace a TIG welder. It never can. You'll still end up TIG welding stuff because it needs to look perfect.

I like to think that a lot of us are on this forum and want to improve and learn all the time.

It still blows my mind that a lot of "professional" welders have never even done a cut-and-etch to check penetration. How do they know if their settings are good, or if they're just squirting metal on top?
I have coded WPSs for structural steel (athough I do a lot more on stainless and alloy) and all those WPS prove is that the welder was set good and monkey can pull welding trigger.

 

[superclarkey]

OK, all I can say is, you're probably on the right track to begin with, you have a good brand and a good dealer

All of these machines mentioned in this thread are very customisable. The Kempact I'm not so sure on but the new MasterMigs certainly seem to offer everything you'd want.

I still think you should take a trip up to Cannock, though. Even if you don't end up buying one, Matt will show you what's possible and it will open up your eyes. You'll see instantly what might work or not work for the stuff you do, and decide if it adds value.
You'll then be able to translate those processes into other brands versions, e.g. wiseroot or fastroot X is Kemppi, RMD is Miller, STT is Lincoln.

Yes I mentioned pipe welding earlier and you think it's way different to welding roll cages and intakes... but it isn't really. You want a controllable process that gives little spatter and works out-of-position. It's what everyone wants to be honest.

The other nice thing about advanced processes is that it widens the usable range of a wire size so you can make it work well on everything.

I will say, I've not ruled out any machine whatsoever, I'm looking at what I think I want and what I like, then once I have a bench mark to say match this or better it, and if the price is the same or better then great... but If I can get everything I want in the Kemppi for £5k-£7k (depending on specs) then I would be not looking to pay above that. So I intend to get my balls in order before wasting peoples time, if I had already made my mind up I wouldn't be on here chatting, I would have just placed the order etc

I think the main difference I see with Pipe fitters (talking 6" plus diameter pipe) vis thin walled roll cage tubing is that the heat input is more sensitive and it has to be completed in one pass and that one pass has to look neat... it also changes direction more quickly so you don't have much time to hang about... But the main point is that the tube will heat up so quickly because it can't get rid of the head that you can start off so cold that by half way your wire is dropping on the floor.. In fact I've had people come to do days work for me that are decent welders and really struggle to do Rollcage tubing inside the car as they are not used to not being able to prop themselves and get into positions where they can't actually see what they are doing and moving torch so fast to keep a good angle.. There is also allot of torch manipulation that needs to go on to kinda balance the changing positions and types of welds as you go. (Clearly a good welder be no problem, just saying average welders that weld plate or that sort of thing, really struggle).

So in short, agree with what your saying, and until an order is placed my mind is wide open.

If I may, your business is centered on quality, not quantity
Its worth remembering that even a £20k fully loaded MIG from Fronius won't fully replace a TIG welder. It never can. You'll still end up TIG welding stuff because it needs to look perfect.

Why thank you sir, yes it is, and that is what I think we should all strive to achieve, the best we can do. I'm no where near being a master of my trade, but I'm not a beginner either... I'm always looking to learn new things and new skills, and this is why I watch videos and read books even on stuff I think I know because you always pick up something that ties together things you already know. When you fully understand something you can make intelligent adjustments based on that instead of random tweaks hoping it will work out.

Full aware that its just a tool and there are people in this thread that could out weld me with the most basic of welders and show me up, I know in everything better gear doesn't always equal better end result. however saying that, I would sooner that it be me that limiting fact that my welder.

I want pulse and double pulse, and something I didn't think about but that is very important... remote control so that I can adjust the welder from inside the car when upside down... this is something the Kemppi machine offers.

 

[superclarkey]

Ah also was going to say, yes I would in an ideal world Tig weld everything as I much prefer it, but there is work that calls for MIG over the TIG and I need to have that option. I mean a TIG Rollcage takes around 4times more time to do if not more... and gaps have to be so perfect it takes allot of time on fit up... now I always strive for best fit up, but MIG helps allot to get around that.

Specially crappy 30 year old shells, they do not want to be tig welded... they need a mig poked in there and blasted to the floor.

I normally use S515 steel on the foot places, which is a pain to tig to the body shell, mig does a nice job of blending it to the shell, and gives me a nice cross over into T45 tubing. Specially if I'm using ER80

 

[Hood]

....and something I didn't think about but that is very important... remote control so that I can adjust the welder from inside the car when upside down... this is something the Kemppi machine offers.

Nearly all the major brands will give you that.
I have a push-pull as @Munkul said and it has remote functions on it, you also get the standard torch with the same features.

The Lorch ones are even fancier, well maybe not fancier but their implementation is, as they use the trigger wires for communication if I recall. Very neat feature as it means no extra wires or plugs.

 

[superclarkey]

I like to think that a lot of us are on this forum and want to improve and learn all the time.

It still blows my mind that a lot of "professional" welders have never even done a cut-and-etch to check penetration. How do they know if their settings are good, or if they're just squirting metal on top?
I have coded WPSs for structural steel (athough I do a lot more on stainless and alloy) and all those WPS prove is that the welder was set good and monkey can pull welding trigger.

Just saw you added a bit more. Yes that is why I love this forum, I read and learn constantly, its great to have somewhere to go to talk about things... I don't post very often because sometimes opinions can be a little strong and people are set in their ways... but trick is pick the peanuts from the turds

I also do not understand how people weld without testing their settings, I have a process where I verify my settings and welding speeds etc on Tube and I weld it out in out of position to see what is needed to be changed.. I also keep samples from the cages I've done so that I have a record that I've tested it.. so there is a bin in the corner full of sample cuts with chassis numbers die ground into them

I find the biggest issue I see is people moving way too fast, you will laugh but I have a metronome in my workshop when I'm tig welding, I listen to it as I'm welding and I pace myself.. I also mark metals with lines I can see in my welding helmet while welding I know are 10 second intervals when I start something new, I use it to give me a guide on how I weld. I know this all sounds stupid but I find as you get better at things you get complacent and think it doesn't matter or rush it... I treat ever mm of my welding as its as important as the bit in front and behind.

Frustratingly roll cages don't actually call for much skill, the Motorsport MSA Bluebook only needs someone that is ok at welding to pass the welds, its a bit of a joke really, roll cages should be done by professionals only as they will save your life.

I think the one thing you learn with cutting and etching is allot of the time when you think your getting in there and melting the crap out of it, sometimes your not even scratching the surface!

I think what people forget too, is the contact area is so small on a weld, specially a spreader plate is a good example, it could be 6x6in plate but only the weld edge is holding the plate, all the surface area under that plate is free to move, thats why in some applications glueing stuff together on cars is actually far stiffer because it uses the whole surface area of the plate and doesn't cause HAZ that could fail or crack.

I'm always fascinated with the technical side of things and what could look strong can be sometimes very weak.

 

[superclarkey]

Nearly all the major brands will give you that.
I have a push-pull as @Munkul said and it has remote functions on it, you also get the standard torch with the same features.

The Lorch ones are even fancier, well maybe not fancier but their implementation is, as they use the trigger wires for communication if I recall. Very neat feature as it means no extra wires or plugs.

Nice! Well its something I want

Only thing I would be looking for is a balance between being able to adjust settings and not adding allot of bulk to the gun. I mean I'm already noticing that many of the water torches are super heavy duty and I basically want it the other way, where they are smaller to get into those hard to reach places and still have a way of adjusting the machine.

Again will be looking at all options.

 

[Hood]

One other thing worth mentioning, if you get a torch of a similar style to the EWM you can fit a smaller neck on it if needed for access.

 

[Hood]

Also worth mentioning, with that style torch you can rotate the neck to any angle which makes it much easier to get into weird places and when fitting out fishing boats their are many weird places

 

[superclarkey]

You can't do that on a Kemppi torch, well the ones I have, they will spin out of position but your undo'ing a thread so, yes you could do it, but I don't think your meant to do it

 

[Hood]

Aye, normal torches you can't but, certainly with EWM, you can get torches that the neck screws on and you can rotate to any position. You can get different angles and also straight although the latter I don't see much use for.
I like the 45 degree bend the best.

Here is a 36 degree I ordered with my EWM push-pull with a 45 degree from my Binzel push pull.

 

[superclarkey]

Yeah that really good, something I didn't put much thought into but is something important to know. I know the Kemppi machine does just use a normal euro style torch, so I can swap it out if needed.

Like my TIG I only have CK torches for it in all difference sizes and styles.

 

[Munkul]

Pretty much all the European top manufacturers use the euro connections for torches, except for Fronius, who love their stupid proprietary connections.

The Lorch powermaster torches are lovely.

I have this on my TIG set, tiny watercooled thing and I wouldn't want anything else ever

 

[stuvy]

Mk5 escort, the yellow one?
Sierra the white one?

 

[superclarkey]

Mk5 escort, the yellow one?
Sierra the white one?

Not a single ford insight sadly lol

Yellow one is a E36 Compact forest rally car, the rear has been converted to take coil-overs as it will see allot of abuse and normally has trailing arm set up.

The white one is a Evo Time attack car.