Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[DanZac]

You obviously say this from the position of charging you car at home. Or being able to if you have an EV.

The argument falls apart at the point you cant charge at home. Then an EV, regardless of size is a massive step backwards. Given thats over half the working population, thats a bit of a problem

That particular problem simply isnt going to get fixed, because, basically it cant be.

When the supply of cheap ICE cars starts to dwindle, those people will be screwed. They will spend every evening looking for somewhere to charge, at the same time as everyone else. And unless they do that in the middle of the night, they will pay very handsomely for the privilege.

Cheap overnight charging is only available for the middle classes with driveways. Those least able to pay, will pay the most.

I fully agree with your points, and I've tried to make clear from the off that I agree that there are still numerous issues to be overcome with EV, the charging issue being the biggest one.

However, from my perspective its a bit like the mobile phone thing. When they first came out they cost thousands, were the size of a small house, battery life was rubbish and the network was unreliable and patchy.

Fast forward 30 years and we've all got one in our pocket with 99% reliability and full coverage, and as the technology matures and the infrastructure catches up (which it will) EV will be the same.

I'm pretty certain that when ICE cars were invented only the rich could afford them and fuel wasn't readily available. We seem to have cracked that one though.

 

[Roger440]

I fully agree with your points, and I've tried to make clear from the off that I agree that there are still numerous issues to be overcome with EV, the charging issue being the biggest one.

However, from my perspective its a bit like the mobile phone thing. When they first came out they cost thousands, were the size of a small house, battery life was rubbish and the network was unreliable and patchy.

Fast forward 30 years and we've all got one in our pocket with 99% reliability and full coverage, and as the technology matures and the infrastructure catches up (which it will) EV will be the same.

I'm pretty certain that when ICE cars were invented only the rich could afford them and fuel wasn't readily available. We seem to have cracked that one though.

You logic is fine. Up to a point. And applies to most tech.

But in this case, even if the cars are 50p, it doesnt help if you cant charge it. Or charging it consumes significant chunks of your time.

I simply dont see a resolution to that. Its not about it "catching up".

All i see is those at the lower end of the income scale, without home charging, being forced out of owning a car. Given that public transport cant possibly hope to cover all the bases, thats going to have a majoe economic impact, both on them, the economy and soiciety.

Of course, other technologies that could power cars, might circumvent those issues. But, oh wait, we have effectively banned them at the outset..................

 

[reb78]

As an honest question and maybe slightly off topic but how many of us make these long journeys on a regular basis that require a "comfortable mile muncher"?

Personally speaking in a previous job I was on the road every day, covering a wide area but still only averaged around 20K miles a year (59 per day average).

Now I commute to work by bike (22 miles a day) and average 5-6K miles a year driving, most of which is made up of short shopping runs and longer weekend trips in my camper van, most of which are still within a 100 mile range of home.

I've 2 sisters that never go more than 50 miles from home (and that's unusual) and of the 5 people currently in the office with me today one commutes 60 miles twice a week, and that's about their longest journey, and the others rarely venture far from home.

I'll grant you we all do the odd long trip for holidays etc, but that's not an every day occurance. So do we really all need a "mile eater" or could the 90% of the population that only do the occasional long trip actually manage with a smaller, more efficient car (not necessarily an EV, but a smaller vehicle)?

Which takes me back to the point that the car is a status symbol, with a big car being a show off point and not a necessity, and until that changes we'll just go round in circles.

I do an approx 550 mile round trip once a fortnight. Often loaded. Sometimes towing a large trailer.

Couple that with the astronomical price of any EV vs a decent second hand ICE mile muncher and I just dont have a choice.

I looked at EVs the other day out of interest. Theres nothing I can afford and nothing with the range or tow capacity I need.

With those distances I dont want uncomfortable seats either.

 

[brewdexta]

EVs dont currently suit everyone, but it will get better.

Prices are coming down as supply now matches demand

Range and speed of charge are improving.

Use of rare earth metals are reducing and new battery chemistry is evolving.

Means of charging are improving. Fewer hurdles, most chargers I've used recently needed no subscription, just a credit/debit card.

Infrastructure is being upgraded, albeit probably not quick enough but that may change.

Some EVs have engine noise effects, just like sticking a lolly pop stick in your bike wheel when you were a kid.

But, eh, let's not end on a positive note. We're all doomed, it will never work, its witchcraft etc etc ad infinitum

 

[reb78]

I wouldnt mind soemthing like the Rivian pickup. Would suit a lot of what I do. But I suspect I will be in the ground long before I can afford one! Start price (In the US I assume) is currently $73000

 

[brewdexta]

I liked the Bollinger pickup, but they seemed to be working more on EV lorry chassis now. The Rivian would do me too but too much money, but I think costs will come down and choice go up.

 

[premmington]

I fully agree with your points, and I've tried to make clear from the off that I agree that there are still numerous issues to be overcome with EV, the charging issue being the biggest one.

However, from my perspective its a bit like the mobile phone thing. When they first came out they cost thousands, were the size of a small house, battery life was rubbish and the network was unreliable and patchy.

Fast forward 30 years and we've all got one in our pocket with 99% reliability and full coverage, and as the technology matures and the infrastructure catches up (which it will) EV will be the same.

I'm pretty certain that when ICE cars were invented only the rich could afford them and fuel wasn't readily available. We seem to have cracked that one though.

My new smart phone is less mobile than Nokias of old - it is constantly teathered to a charger - as battery only lasts two days from new - where a Nokia of old lasted me a week. I get range anxiety with a phone now. Yes my new smart phone does do more than older phones and yes I might be using it more.

@DanZac But you do make some good points above - yes the first ICE cars must have been big money and only owned by playboys and wealthy land owners.

 

[cheb]

When did mass ownership of ICE cars happen? Late 1950s early 1960s maybe. That's a good wee whiley after the ICE was first invented.

Re phones: Turn off all apps and wifi, only use it for phone calls and texts, and then see how long the battery lasts.

 

[bricol]

Well, the whole thing falls apart if everyone takes that view. We need a next generation, and we need them to improve on what we and what our forbearers did. Don't need to go backwards, but we will if we don't have enough of an intelligent population to sustain improvements. I understand not everyone can/wants to have kids, but someone has to wipe your bum and pay the pension bill when you are no longer able. We all have a responsibility to teach the next generation, when I look back on my upbringing and the folk in my life there were a few older childless couples in the village who were pretty good to us as a family and one in particular who set us up with wee practical jobs where we provided the brawn and they the knowledge. Gave us access to his toolshed and in later years when he lost ability to drive access to his car as well.

Why do we "NEED" a next generation?

We don't.

 

[GRW]

When did mass ownership of ICE cars happen? Late 1950s early 1960s maybe. That's a good wee whiley after the ICE was first invented.

Re phones: Turn off all apps and wifi, only use it for phone calls and texts, and then see how long the battery lasts.

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

Mass ownership of the ICE was largely due to affordability (Model T Ford though kicked that off some 20-years after the Daimler). Also a key difference is not just cost of an EV & its (relatively short life also) lifetime cost.... but that a buyer moving to an ICE (from what they used before) was getting a significant leap forward in real-world benefits.

Right now, in moving from an ICE to an EV - a buyer has to spend a lot more money, to gain a lot of real-world compromises & limitations instead (over what he's been using/is using).

Without the Govt tilting the playing field to hamstring the ICE i.e. whacking up RFL, steadily removing large sections of road where they can be used (ULEZ etc), thus giving the appeal/need for EV a boost (not on its own merits, but by altering the use environment to disadvantage the ICE).... then I'm sure the adoption of the EV would be much slower than it is.

Without the Govt tilting the field to offset the constraints/limitations/costs of EV versus ICE (I.e. if the EV had to compete head-to-head on cost / performance / usability etc..... then it'd be in trouble.

As it is, a lot of people in the future won't be able to afford or home-charge an EV, do their real-world option will be to not have a car at all.

 

[addjunkie]

Why do we "NEED" a next generation?

We don't.

You do, or there will be no one around to wipe ya bum and decide if your getting burnt, buried or composted…..unless weve moved on to soylent green!

 

[cheb]

Granted I was being parochial and only really thinking of the UK. I've read that some countries in Africa and elesewhere have a very good mobile phone network as they weren't held back by a legacy copper wire based system.

 

[premmington]

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

Mass ownership of the ICE was largely due to affordability (Model T Ford though kicked that off some 20-years after the Daimler). Also a key difference is not just cost of an EV & its (relatively short life also) lifetime cost.... but that a buyer moving to an ICE (from what they used before) was getting a significant leap forward in real-world benefits.

Right now, in moving from an ICE to an EV - a buyer has to spend a lot more money, to gain a lot of real-world compromises & limitations instead (over what he's been using/is using).

Without the Govt tilting the playing field to hamstring the ICE i.e. whacking up RFL, steadily removing large sections of road where they can be used (ULEZ etc), thus giving the appeal/need for EV a boost (not on its own merits, but by altering the use environment to disadvantage the ICE).... then I'm sure the adoption of the EV would be much slower than it is.

Without the Govt tilting the field to offset the constraints/limitations/costs of EV versus ICE (I.e. if the EV had to compete head-to-head on cost / performance / usability etc..... then it'd be in trouble.

As it is, a lot of people in the future won't be able to afford or home-charge an EV, do their real-world option will be to not have a car at all.

"Transport poverty"

But when I was a kid - nobody in my street had a car - they all biked to work/caught the bus. I walked to the school bus stop.

Few blokes had cheap to run motorbikes - little ones...

Odd chap brought a van/truck/lorry/tractor home from work every now and again.

But vehicles bringing goods came nearly daily - wetfish van - fish and chip van - grocery van - coal lorry - milk float - bread van - butchers van - Corona pop van - brewery lorry - there was even a van selling seeds and plants sometimes - and at certain times of the year - a "haberdashery" selling meterial and kniting stuff. Thinking about it there were people selling towels/tea towels at the doorstep. Shops came to you (suppose the internet gonna do the same all these years later).

Also a holiday for us involved a train/bus if you were lucky enuf to get a holiday.

----------

Maybe it will go full circle - maybe you won't want/need a car with working at home on a laptop and Amazon/Deliveroo?

 

[atomant48]

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

Mass ownership of the ICE was largely due to affordability (Model T Ford though kicked that off some 20-years after the Daimler). Also a key difference is not just cost of an EV & its (relatively short life also) lifetime cost.... but that a buyer moving to an ICE (from what they used before) was getting a significant leap forward in real-world benefits.

Right now, in moving from an ICE to an EV - a buyer has to spend a lot more money, to gain a lot of real-world compromises & limitations instead (over what he's been using/is using).

Without the Govt tilting the playing field to hamstring the ICE i.e. whacking up RFL, steadily removing large sections of road where they can be used (ULEZ etc), thus giving the appeal/need for EV a boost (not on its own merits, but by altering the use environment to disadvantage the ICE).... then I'm sure the adoption of the EV would be much slower than it is.

Without the Govt tilting the field to offset the constraints/limitations/costs of EV versus ICE (I.e. if the EV had to compete head-to-head on cost / performance / usability etc..... then it'd be in trouble.

As it is, a lot of people in the future won't be able to afford or home-charge an EV, do their real-world option will be to not have a car at all.

I actually agree with some of your points there - very valid.

 

[atomant48]

You logic is fine. Up to a point. And applies to most tech.

But in this case, even if the cars are 50p, it doesnt help if you cant charge it. Or charging it consumes significant chunks of your time.

I simply dont see a resolution to that. Its not about it "catching up".

All i see is those at the lower end of the income scale, without home charging, being forced out of owning a car. Given that public transport cant possibly hope to cover all the bases, thats going to have a majoe economic impact, both on them, the economy and soiciety.

Of course, other technologies that could power cars, might circumvent those issues. But, oh wait, we have effectively banned them at the outset..................

I’ve said before earlier up I acknowledge the fortunate fact that I can park on our driveway and charge. But I have friends/family that don’t and get on just fine. I’ve never on the occasions I’ve used them, had to queue at a charging station. You can put about 15 miles a minute into your battery at a decent charger …. If you do the maths on the figures quoted above about weekly journey - you are literally measuring your charge time in minutes. How many of us don’t take a break of “minutes” during the day to surf emails, this forum etc …?

But I can see the argument about “if more and more people adopted and needed public charging ….”’and I can’t disagree - the infrastructure needs to catch up / keep pace.

 

[atomant48]

You might have got away with that if you had said ”a few” or even “some” but not many.

Yea but i started with “there’s a chance” … so surely I get away with it

 

[not done it yet]

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

The big significant change, in my lifetime, was the rise of “Hire Purchase” (HP). Before the ‘60s people needed to save to be able to buy things. HP changed all that and the ‘status symbol’ became something that you didn’t actually need to own. Ever since HP, further ways to live in debt have been invented/developed. Credit cards and, recently, leasing contracts, etc.

I can’t deny having used credit during my life (other than the mortgage), but it was always been under strict control - and everything I have now is actually mine.

 

[premmington]

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

The big significant change, in my lifetime, was the rise of “Hire Purchase” (HP). Before the ‘60s people needed to save to be able to buy things. HP changed all that and the ‘status symbol’ became something that you didn’t actually need to own. Ever since HP, further ways to live in debt have been invented/developed. Credit cards and, recently, leasing contracts, etc.

I can’t deny having used credit during my life (other than the mortgage), but it was always been under strict control - and everything I have now is actually mine.

Very valid point -

 

[reb78]

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

The big significant change, in my lifetime, was the rise of “Hire Purchase” (HP). Before the ‘60s people needed to save to be able to buy things. HP changed all that and the ‘status symbol’ became something that you didn’t actually need to own. Ever since HP, further ways to live in debt have been invented/developed. Credit cards and, recently, leasing contracts, etc.

I can’t deny having used credit during my life (other than the mortgage), but it was always been under strict control - and everything I have now is actually mine.

Like you, I still live in a pre-60s mentality. I still have a mortgage but thats my only debt. I dont actually know how people afford HP... even if I sold all of my current cars and used that money to fund an HP agreement on one car (and a car that I would never seem to own), I couldn't afford the monthly outgoings and final payment... This is really why an EV that can function as I need it is quite unattainable for me.

I have no need to 'keep up with the Jones' ' either... which to me seems to be what HP has driven in a lot of cases... quite happy with my lot.... I had a girlfriend once who's parents had to have the newest/biggest/best/flashest of everything and they were some of the most miserable horrible human beings on the planet... Constantly jealous of my dad who had what he wanted, was happy and owned it all...!

 

[GRW]

Me

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

The big significant change, in my lifetime, was the rise of “Hire Purchase” (HP). Before the ‘60s people needed to save to be able to buy things. HP changed all that and the ‘status symbol’ became something that you didn’t actually need to own. Ever since HP, further ways to live in debt have been invented/developed. Credit cards and, recently, leasing contracts, etc.

I can’t deny having used credit during my life (other than the mortgage), but it was always been under strict control - and everything I have now is actually mine.

Me too. I've used Credit, mortgage and a couple of small, thought-out, affordable borrowings that I wouldn't kill me if things went pear-shaped..... but the culture of "buying what you cannot afford" on the drip.... hell no.

As I said before "the only gamble worth taking - is the one you can afford to lose". Also hocking up to the eyeballs to own ANY new "consumer disposable" vehicle, with the "keep out" maintenance restrictions - is not my idea of a sensible fiscal policy.