Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[Roger440]

I thi

I've never heard of Inchcape etc! (Though not surprised there are massive corporations operating behind the already massive brands).

I wasn't actually thinking that the Mfrs were necessarily driving the decision of your Group Company - nevertheless the fact that what is clearly a very big car retailer has felt the need to protect itself from the poor resale value & risk of taking in EV's in part-exchange..... is not exactly a promising and confidence-inspiring thing I'd have thought.

I think you are reading too much into it. They are just protecting themselves from market volatility. It will settle down in some form or other.

Dont forget as well as the customer being limited in their trade in options, they are also cutting themselves off from potential new brand cutomers. Thats not sustainable long term.

Just the same as some used car places wont touch JLR product because its just too much hassle with faults and warranty etc.

It will pass.

 

[not done it yet]

I just saw an Ad on the telly, flogging some Renault EV thing.
Deposit: nearly £8k.
Monthly (36-months): £399/mth.
Final payment if you want to keep it: £22K (bar a couple of quid).
Some other cost (admin?): £650

So, as a rough calc to have (not own) the car for 3-years (& go back on the drip for another) cost circa £22.5K.
If you want to actually keep & buy the car, stump up about the same again

So, before you charge the thing once and drive it anywhere - its costing over £7.5k annually for a minimum 3-year agreement period - after which point you own.... nothing.

What a bargain eh!

And the value of an ICE renault after 3 years ? Cars depreciate. I expect a £45 grand ICE car would not be worth so much. Do try to keep things sensible. No leased car gives any return after the leasing period (as far as I am aware)? Or don’t you live in reality - just your own little shell?

Up until very recently our cars were 18 and 27 years old. I chose to buy an expensive (for me), nearly new EV and expect it to depreciate. Virtually all cars do, eventually (some do appreciate, but not that many in the whole scale of the vehicle industry). I don’t really expect my car will be on the road in twenty years time.

You won’t be forced to buy an EV for another 20 years, or so. What exactly are you complaining about? Just carry on polluting the atmosphere with the products of combustion from fossil fuels for another 20 years, or so. But don’t you think your second hand fossil burner will also be quite costly when purchased in 20 years time? I think they will or the fuel will be rather costly. But I won't be around by then, in all probability, so I am not going to worry too much about it.

By then the grid should be be getting fairly well decarbonised - there will be more renewables and more nuclear (you might complain about that, too?). Carry on undermining the health of city dwellers with your pollutants - I’m sure they will understand your stance. But they are fighting back - the cost for fossil burners to enter cities will become more expensive (if access is still possible).

Have a nice day.

 

[redlig]

Could anyone explain how a car that is E driven with electricity supplied by an on board generator which is powered by an IC engine and does not require an external power source is in any way Green.

 

[Agrismith]

Got to be careful with the "who needs a big car" type questions . . .

Who needs more than a 2 up, 2 down house?
Who needs a garden?
A workshop?
A welder?
Any power tool at all?

Who needs kids?

Children are the ones who are really going to use the worlds resources in the future. Stop producing more children!

Slightly more seriously - that is part of the reason that, to the best of my knowledge, I haven't assisted in the production of any

I think the bigger point is if we removed the status symbol attributes of the modern car then people would choose something sensible of there own accord. I don't agree with gouvenment intervention with anything. But if they made appealing small cars rather than making them seem a bit budget then a lot of problems would be self sorting.
It amazes me how efficiently in terms of space they can design sub compact cars like the VW up and Citroen c1 as well as most vans. Then they come to other cars and seem to look for the most inefficient ways of using space forcing people into bigger cars.


But this should all be irrelevant as if the government would sort the public transport people would naturally choose that as it has the potential to be a far more enjoyable journey than the most fancy of cars

 

[Roger440]

But this should all be irrelevant as if the government would sort the public transport people would naturally choose that as it has the potential to be a far more enjoyable journey than the most fancy of cars

You arew delusional.

1, Government will NEVER sort out public transport.
2, Public transport even if sorted out, whatever that means, will still be massively more inconvienient that the car. When pubclic transport takes me from where i am, to where i want to be, with whatever i need to take with me, in a similar time frame, let me know. I wont hold my breath.

 

[GRW]

And the value of an ICE renault after 3 years ? Cars depreciate. I expect a £45 grand ICE car would not be worth so much. Do try to keep things sensible. No leased car gives any return after the leasing period (as far as I am aware)? Or don’t you live in reality - just your own little shell?

Up until very recently our cars were 18 and 27 years old. I chose to buy an expensive (for me), nearly new EV and expect it to depreciate. Virtually all cars do, eventually (some do appreciate, but not that many in the whole scale of the vehicle industry). I don’t really expect my car will be on the road in twenty years time.

You won’t be forced to buy an EV for another 20 years, or so. What exactly are you complaining about? Just carry on polluting the atmosphere with the products of combustion from fossil fuels for another 20 years, or so. But don’t you think your second hand fossil burner will also be quite costly when purchased in 20 years time? I think they will or the fuel will be rather costly. But I won't be around by then, in all probability, so I am not going to worry too much about it.

By then the grid should be be getting fairly well decarbonised - there will be more renewables and more nuclear (you might complain about that, too?). Carry on undermining the health of city dwellers with your pollutants - I’m sure they will understand your stance. But they are fighting back - the cost for fossil burners to enter cities will become more expensive (if access is still possible).

Have a nice day.

Woah! I posted that I'd seen a factual advert. You've got touchy because I pointed out that thus Renault would cost £22.5k (plus running costs) for 3-years, & you don't own it.
That's not "depreciation", that's £22.5k (£7.5k/yr) just to have use of it.

And don't pontificate to me about being a polluter & getting all sanctimonious - it's pretty daft to try & be superior when the real environmental impact of a short-life EV & its manufacturing impact, how most of its electricity is produced etc are factored in.

Newsflash for you before you go too "holier than thou" and look daft(er).... your EV went through a lot of fossil fuel to make it, mine the minerals, ship it round half the planet, and also to provide the majority of grid electric that charges these things.
You're as much a "fossil-burner" & a consumer as everyone else - its just not as immediately visible


Arguably your old (& my current old) vehicles have a smaller "carbon footprint" than your "green" EV (& certainly less than the impact of several cars every few years) - so getting all huffy & attacking me in a fit of pique for highlighting the ridiculous cost to have a less real-world useful vehicle..... ain't my problem fella.

 

[m_c]

Could anyone explain how a car that is E driven with electricity supplied by an on board generator which is powered by an IC engine and does not require an external power source is in any way Green.

I'm assuming you're being specific about non-plugin hybrids?
The only real benefit is the engine generally only runs under optimum conditions, and only for as long as the additional power generation is needed.

Ultimately it's why hybrids are mostly being treated as ICE cars in terms of tax now, as their green credentials are pretty marginal.

 

[GRW]

I'm assuming you're being specific about non-plugin hybrids?
The only real benefit is the engine generally only runs under optimum conditions, and only for as long as the additional power generation is needed.

Ultimately it's why hybrids are mostly being treated as ICE cars in terms of tax now, as their green credentials are pretty marginal.

And that's without factoring in the appalling fuel consumption when the on-board ICE is in use (because its a small engine hauling around an extra ton of weight with all the batteries and leccy motors, inverters, cables etc).

 

[Agrismith]

You arew delusional.

1, Government will NEVER sort out public transport.
2, Public transport even if sorted out, whatever that means, will still be massively more inconvienient that the car. When pubclic transport takes me from where i am, to where i want to be, with whatever i need to take with me, in a similar time frame, let me know. I wont hold my breath.

I know they won't but it still has the possibility.
And I disagree. Decent public transport is a lot better option than a car. A train can go in a straight line, traveling faster than a car, you can get up walk around or sit and enjoy the scenery read a book do some work. You can even go for a dump. You don't have to park when you get there you don't then have to worry about you pride and joy status symbol being damaged in the car park.
If ran in a similar way to other countries it would be cheaper than the car too.
Driving around is a pain in the ****. It's no longer an enjoyable experience.

 

[GRW]

I know they won't but it still has the possibility.
And I disagree. Decent public transport is a lot better option than a car. A train can go in a straight line, traveling faster than a car, you can get up walk around or sit and enjoy the scenery read a book do some work. You can even go for a dump. You don't have to park when you get there you don't then have to worry about you pride and joy status symbol being damaged in the car park.
If ran in a similar way to other countries it would be cheaper than the car too.
Driving around is a pain in the ****. It's no longer an enjoyable experience.

It's true that a lot of the enjoyment & feeling of freedom has been sucked out of driving (which along with riding motorcycles I used to love).
However, the public transport (esp. the railways which got shredded by Beeching & spent decades being a poor cousin to the cars & trucks) isn't my idea of a pleasant or easy alternative.
Public transport in rural areas has ever been woeful - & it shows no signs of getting better or being a cheap way to get about.

A guy I used to work with lived in Pembroke, & worked with us 10-miles or so outside Carmarthen. Despite having a station near his home & the office, he looked into it.... and found the reality was something stupid - something like that he'd have to leave his house 45-min before he could get home by train - to start his train journey to get to work in time for the day's work.

In the sticks we are dependent on the car, so every time they screw the motorist, the rural communities feel the pinch hardest (except perhaps for the poor sods living just inside a ULEZ zone who can't afford to drop a Mortgage type sum on an EV).

 

[brewdexta]

I commute to London from Yorkshire by train every week. Not perfect but with a senior railcard it cost me 12 quid to get down there, and that was the 8.00 train so not off peak. Getting back cost a bit more, more like 30 quid. And I only booked a few days before. 460 miles for less than 50 quid, no depreciation or wear and tear costs and I even managed to annoy everybody by snoring

 

[willie.macleod]

In Scotland, the young (<21) and old (>60) get free bus travel. Lots of youngsters (particularly in towns and cities) aren't going to get their driving licenses and will never buy a car. Those in rural places will continue to need their own transport.

Scotland's also producing loads of renewable energy (produce more renewable electricity than we use), contrary to popular belief our EVs aren't just fuelled by big diesel generators. As the grid slowly gets smarter we should be able to further improve our storage (hmm, wonder where we could find some mobile batteries) and our plans for more renewables are all coming along apace.

I am not a fan of taking away personal freedoms, but I don't see the EV as a way of doing this although that's the way some posters are trying to spin it. You can buy an old Leaf now for sensible money outright. It can't be "shut off" remotely by the manufacturer. Spare parts easy enough to find. The internals are well documented if you want to do a bit of CANBUS hacking and replace something. It is efficient enough compared to an ICE, I already posted how it is more efficient than a 125cc scooter with the bonus of carrying 5 and luggage in comfort. You can charge it from a house-sized PV array giving you real independence if you make the initial investment, can't do that with a petrol or diesel. Insurance and tax aren't silly money. TCO if done right is sensible. Those folk suggesting EVs are dead at 10 years and worthless please notify me of any 10 year old Leafs that are waiting to be picked up for scrap metal money.

 

[Smallfry]

I know they won't but it still has the possibility.
And I disagree. Decent public transport is a lot better option than a car. A train can go in a straight line, traveling faster than a car, you can get up walk around or sit and enjoy the scenery read a book do some work. You can even go for a dump. You don't have to park when you get there you don't then have to worry about you pride and joy status symbol being damaged in the car park.
If ran in a similar way to other countries it would be cheaper than the car too.
Driving around is a pain in the ****. It's no longer an enjoyable experience.

This is all fine and dandy if you have a public transport within SENSIBLE walking distance. We don't. And again if there is one at your destination. Most times there isn't.
Then, what if the weather is bad and you end up soaked ?
What if you have items to carry, whatever they may be ? Shopping, Sports gear, a canoe, work items, tools, a chest of drawers even ?
What if there are four of you ? And you want to go 250 miles ? Certainly will NEVER be cheaper by public transport, and the speed saving by the train will be lost in time taken getting to stations and train changes etc. It also cannot be relied on.
Public transport in this country will NEVER be run like other countries, as the Unions will not allow it, as they hold the country to ransom to keep non jobs like paraffin lamp wick trimmers at 40k a year, and suchlike. This is one of the reasons why it will NEVER be cheap. I hope you are proud brothers !

While I agree that driving is not pleasurable a lot of the time, public transport is, and always will be inconvenient at best, or a complete non starter financially for most. Even taking into account the standing costs of having a vehicle, or two, or three. Only practical and possibly affordable if you live and work in the same city or town.

 

[premmington]

I just saw an Ad on the telly, flogging some Renault EV thing.
Deposit: nearly £8k.
Monthly (36-months): £399/mth.
Final payment if you want to keep it: £22K (bar a couple of quid).
Some other cost (admin?): £650

So, as a rough calc to have (not own) the car for 3-years (& go back on the drip for another) cost circa £22.5K.
If you want to actually keep & buy the car, stump up about the same again

So, before you charge the thing once and drive it anywhere - its costing over £7.5k annually for a minimum 3-year agreement period - after which point you own.... nothing.

What a bargain eh!

But for your £7.5k a year.

It is likely to work every time you go to use it - you are getting a new car - it is shiney and new - you can put your "vanity plate" on it - you not gonna get any huge repair bills - you not gonna be without transport when it breaks. It is gonna be in warranty - you are gonna get recovered and you are gonna get a courtesy car.

But it is gonna cost you £150 a week to rent it - even if it sits down your drive and you never use it (for a Renault ) .

If you surrender the deal earlier than 3yrs - you are gonna get raped money wise. If you damage it - you are gonna get raped when you take your rented car back. And as you said above - it is never gonna be yours - unless you pay the balloon payment (not many of these deals now have a final payment for ownership read the small print).

But you do get a new car in warranty for your money... You do and that has a higher value - it does!

--------------

What scares me with the whole PHP deal thing is - on day 1095 of your rental deal - when you take it back. To swap it for a new rental car - some sales reptile would hit me with a £200 a week deal or I am walking home (carless on shanks's pony). You in a vulnerable place/position - unless you been shopping about and done your homework. Of late there been a shortage of new cars/vans and you been vulnerable for PHP deals even if you care not to admit it...

What I am about to say - I never thought I would ever say ever. Straight HP has never looked so good. I personaly have never borrowed for a car/motorbike in my life - I just buy them - if I got plenty of money I have a good one - when I was poor - I had poor vehicles. But on straight HP - at the end of the term - if your circumstances change and you can't afford to uptrade - at least if you have looked after the car - it is yours and you not walking.

But the downsides of ownership (not renting a car on PHP) is: You are open to market fluctuations of the value at time of the change of the vehicle. Or you might have chosen a car - nobody wants to buy/trade at good/fair money.

There are good points for PHP deals (renting a car) there is! You do know what the cost will be - it is a fixed cost.

 

[brewdexta]

This is all fine and dandy if you have a public transport within SENSIBLE walking distance. We don't. And again if there is one at your destination. Most times there isn't.
Then, what if the weather is bad and you end up soaked ?
What if you have items to carry, whatever they may be ? Shopping, Sports gear, a canoe, work items, tools, a chest of drawers even ?
What if there are four of you ? And you want to go 250 miles ? Certainly will NEVER be cheaper by public transport, and the speed saving by the train will be lost in time taken getting to stations and train changes etc. It also cannot be relied on.
Public transport in this country will NEVER be run like other countries, as the Unions will not allow it, as they hold the country to ransom to keep non jobs like paraffin lamp wick trimmers at 40k a year, and suchlike. This is one of the reasons why it will NEVER be cheap. I hope you are proud brothers !

While I agree that driving is not pleasurable a lot of the time, public transport is, and always will be inconvenient at best, or a complete non starter financially for most. Even taking into account the standing costs of having a vehicle, or two, or three. Only practical and possibly affordable if you live and work in the same city or town.

250 miles is approx distance I commute by train, it varies but usually max 50 quid round trip.

So 4 people for 200 quid. Possibly less with friends and family discount.

My car does about 35 to the gallon. Diesel is about £1.45 a litre around here, (nearly 2 quid at motorway services) 500 mile round trip is 65 litres, or just short of 100 quid. Add on wear and tear of 500 miles, share of RFL, depreciation, insurance and you will be getting close.

Add on sitting on the M1 for several hours instead if being where you want to be. Dying for a pee while the road backs up because people can't merge in turn. Smart motorways that are thick as pudding. Avoiding whichever useless driver tries to kill you, this seems to happen more frequently. Overpriced services that makes the train look cheap. Queuing at the pumps as there's only on pump of economy diesel working, all the others are expensive pointless "super deluxe" marketing bull juice.

As apposed to stretching out on a train. Use seat frog to upgrade your seat to first class for a fiver if you think its necessary. Listen to some music, watch a vid, go for a wee whenever, eat your pack lunch or go to the buffet. Have a beer.

Then you find out the franchisee that runs this sensible, comfortable cost effective and green mode of transport is brought to you by the nationalised rail companies of other countries that are much more unionised. Then you realise that your being told cobblers and it's not the unions, but the media that tell you its them. It seems that these other heavily unionised countries also have better car industries than us, and retire earlier. Funny that you don't hear that much in the media isn't it.......

 

[redlig]

I know they won't but it still has the possibility.
And I disagree. Decent public transport is a lot better option than a car. A train can go in a straight line, traveling faster than a car, you can get up walk around or sit and enjoy the scenery read a book do some work. You can even go for a dump. You don't have to park when you get there you don't then have to worry about you pride and joy status symbol being damaged in the car park.
If ran in a similar way to other countries it would be cheaper than the car too.
Driving around is a pain in the ****. It's no longer an enjoyable experience.

Big downside to public transport is that they don't pick up or deliver to my door .

 

[premmington]

Big downside to public transport is that they don't pick up or deliver to my door .

What is the new bus thing my wife is talking about £2 anywhere?

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

I generally do PCP on new cars...works for me as I buy them at the end of 3 years. The deals worked well when interest rates were low...in my opinion the end of contract option has value.

If I hate the car...if it's value falls too quick then just hand back and walk away. In financial speak I have a put option.

My Hyundai Tucson...all in cost was around £28k...current value after 4 years is around £21k ....these are exceptional times though!

At the moment rates and prices are too high for me so I'll wait a while.

 

[Agrismith]

It's true that a lot of the enjoyment & feeling of freedom has been sucked out of driving (which along with riding motorcycles I used to love).
However, the public transport (esp. the railways which got shredded by Beeching & spent decades being a poor cousin to the cars & trucks) isn't my idea of a pleasant or easy alternative.
Public transport in rural areas has ever been woeful - & it shows no signs of getting better or being a cheap way to get about.

A guy I used to work with lived in Pembroke, & worked with us 10-miles or so outside Carmarthen. Despite having a station near his home & the office, he looked into it.... and found the reality was something stupid - something like that he'd have to leave his house 45-min before he could get home by train - to start his train journey to get to work in time for the day's work.

In the sticks we are dependent on the car, so every time they screw the motorist, the rural communities feel the pinch hardest (except perhaps for the poor sods living just inside a ULEZ zone who can't afford to drop a Mortgage type sum on an EV).

This is all fine and dandy if you have a public transport within SENSIBLE walking distance. We don't. And again if there is one at your destination. Most times there isn't.
Then, what if the weather is bad and you end up soaked ?
What if you have items to carry, whatever they may be ? Shopping, Sports gear, a canoe, work items, tools, a chest of drawers even ?
What if there are four of you ? And you want to go 250 miles ? Certainly will NEVER be cheaper by public transport, and the speed saving by the train will be lost in time taken getting to stations and train changes etc. It also cannot be relied on.
Public transport in this country will NEVER be run like other countries, as the Unions will not allow it, as they hold the country to ransom to keep non jobs like paraffin lamp wick trimmers at 40k a year, and suchlike. This is one of the reasons why it will NEVER be cheap. I hope you are proud brothers !

While I agree that driving is not pleasurable a lot of the time, public transport is, and always will be inconvenient at best, or a complete non starter financially for most. Even taking into account the standing costs of having a vehicle, or two, or three. Only practical and possibly affordable if you live and work in the same city or town.

I think both of you have missed my point when I said public transport has the potential to be the best answer. I know it's not now and there will always be times when a personal vehicle will be needed especially with tradesmen and the like. But if the government invested in public transport instead of frittering money away then a lot of the problems could solve themselves without government legislation.
This is the problem, the government are choosing the stick not the carrot. If they made public transport more appealing then there would be no need to heavily legislate private vehicles as people would naturally take the better option. If we heavily reduced the use of private cars it means people could have what ever ice car they like at home for times that public transport won't do.
But rather than give people a sensible economical alternative we are being forced into buying expensive cars to complete every journey.

 

[reb78]

--------------

What scares me with the whole PHP deal thing is - on day 1095 of your rental deal - when you take it back. To swap it for a new rental car - some sales reptile would hit me with a £200 a week deal or I am walking home (carless on shanks's pony). You in a vulnerable place/position - unless you been shopping about and done your homework. Of late there been a shortage of new cars/vans and you been vulnerable for PHP deals even if you care not to admit it...

What I am about to say - I never thought I would ever say ever. Straight HP has never looked so good. I personaly have never borrowed for a car/motorbike in my life - I just buy them - if I got plenty of money I have a good one - when I was poor - I had poor vehicles. But on straight HP - at the end of the term - if your circumstances change and you can't afford to uptrade - at least if you have looked after the car - it is yours and you not walking.

But the downsides of ownership (not renting a car on PHP) is: You are open to market fluctuations of the value at time of the change of the vehicle. Or you might have chosen a car - nobody wants to buy/trade at good/fair money.

There are good points for PHP deals (renting a car) there is! You do know what the cost will be - it is a fixed cost.

This sums up PHP for me completely. Whether it be on an EV or an ICE vehicle. No way is it for me. Hence an EV is years away even if I wanted one. My Land Rover 110 and TD5 D2 cost me very little. The 110 is appreciating. The D2 got written off and somehow the insurance offered us more than it was worth *IMO* as a buy back and I put it back on the road for £400 so it owes us nothing! I cant afford to splash £60k plus on a new car or the monthly PHP. I really dont know how people manage it.