Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[Ubique]

The old-ish chargers in the carpark I use are 32A, they've just installed some fast DC chargers at the other end, complete with new substation, I've not been near (no need to ) but there's always at least one or two of the six bays in use. The three phase chargers at work are on 63A MCB's but as already mentioned, the current is limited by the onboard charge controller or the supply, whichever is the lower.
I have a Noco jump start pack, capable of fast charging, I feel it's better on a slow charge and only to the 4th LED, not the 5th - it just seems to be a better option to me, there is no reason why I'd need a fast charge on it. If I had a BEV, I'd most likely do the same.

 

[GRW]

Question.
It seems these fast-chargers are very big, use very big input power to charge at extremely high DC currents (on a welding forum everyone will have a good idea what high currents can do).... & can cost as much as an EV vehicle (& then there's the AC Supply Infrastructure needed on top of that, plus the Civils etc no doubt) - so in short every fast-charge point will cost a LOT of money.

Now... I've not heard anything about the EV Buyer or the Mfr) having to contribute a portion of the EV price to fund its charging network, so.....

Just who is in-line to foot the gargantuan bill for proving a UK-wide Charging Network?

 

[willie.macleod]

Just who is in-line to foot the gargantuan bill for proving a UK-wide Charging Network?

Not one single company. There's a number of providers who have a national presence (BP Pulse, Osprey, Fastned, Tesla, Instavolt, Gridserve, Charge Place Scotland, PodPoint) but it can get complicated as to who owns what. If you want footfall in a food based shop and are in an area with low public charger availability then a rapid in the car park may not be a bad idea, companies like Chocolates of Glenshiel, or the two cafes at Tyndrum are good examples of how to get yourself onto the radar and get customers in the door who you can then work on for half an hour to pry their wallets open, and even out of hours have the asset paying for itself.

 

[not done it yet]

Trickle charging a lightweight city EV overnight on a 240v 13amp AC charger at home - is viable now...

DC injecting at welding currents a heavy wieght supercar at speed with safety is gonna require infrastructure - it is coming...

It always has been. The typical ‘three-pin’ charger will deliver about 2.2-2.3kW. That, just running around town will carry the vehicle 8-10 miles. So a 12 hour over-night charge could replenish more than sufficient for city travel. It only becomes necessary for non-urbanites to need a bit more on some/most days.

Those of us with a 7kW charger can easily add 20-30 miles each hour while charging (up to 80%). Only the really powerful cars, used ‘energetically’ will drop below 3 miles/kWh. Motorway speeds are somewhat less efficient than a steady 60mph on a single carriageway. It can rather depend on how one drives - but ICE cars generally fare less well, than EVs, in city driving - the stop starts are all power and braking (where the regeneration very much helps the EV).

I expect most cars have best energy consumption at around 50-60mph? Most will be dropping economy at 70mph - on motorways the BEV will not gain much over the ICE simply because there should not need to be any (let alone continual) speed reduction - therefore less deceleration energy loss/recuperation.

The 800 Volt charging architecture is here. Porches, and a few others, can charge at up to 350kW if they can locate a suitable charger. That is most certainly ’welding‘ current at over 400A! Think about that - it would be 5 miles range in a ‘city’ car in just 10 seconds!. Perhaps a day’s motoring in less than a couple of minutes!

That charging rate may be approachable in a couple of decades or so. I’m not saying it will, but the charging speed could easily exceed the speed (and phaff) of filling a current vehicle with liquid fuel.

I would settle for up to 8 hours each night, at around 25 miles range replenishment each hour, No queuing, approx 30s to plug in and about the same to disconnect in the morning - well, likely less. There will need to be some investment to get the unit price down to 7.5p per kWh, mind. Might have to settle for fewer hours at 9.5p per unit for a while…

The EV charging has progressed, in about 15 years, from a couple of kW to 350kW. That is an increase of 175 times. Agreed, big batteries, so not so attainable with a very much smaller battery - but progress marches on.

Just compare the size of wind turbines over the last 25 years multiple kW to multiple MW machines.

Just compare PV output over that same time - from a few domestic users, with mostly a maximum 4kW system, to a 350MW solar farm being constructed at present.

Just compare power tool batteries over that time. None have gotten worse and some are an order of magnitude improvement over what was available.

My next adventure will be well over a couple hundred miles to S. Wales next week. I will have to charge it up a couple of times to get home, of course. The following month will be a trip to Shrewsbury. Certainly more rapid charging needed. Shock, horror.

 

[daleyd]

If you were to begin using oil, for the first time, right now, think how fantastically unbelievable it would seem to do so.

First, you need to go and find some dead dinosaurs from millions of years ago, probably under the sea somewhere.

Next you need to build some structures, many thousands of tonnes of steel, with all sorts of fantastically complicated processing equipment onboard. These need to be capable of being sunk down to the sea bed and then drill down into the pockets of dead dinosaurs.

Once you’ve drilled down you need to extract and separate the crude, remove any water etc and then pump it onto a ship specially built to transport it to somewhere else. You might also build a pipeline hundreds of miles to transport it.

The next step is then to refine this into products you can actually use, using huge amounts of heat and chemicals in specially made plants costing many billions of pounds to build and run. You’ll need to then transport this product using a fleet of specially made trucks to stations across the uk with big underground storage tanks where you can then pump this stuff into your vehicle.

Makes putting some fast chargers around the country seem quite tame really.

 

[addjunkie]

If you were to begin using oil, for the first time, right now, think how fantastically unbelievable it would seem to do so.

First, you need to go and find some dead dinosaurs from millions of years ago, probably under the sea somewhere.

Next you need to build some structures, many thousands of tonnes of steel, with all sorts of fantastically complicated processing equipment onboard. These need to be capable of being sunk down to the sea bed and then drill down into the pockets of dead dinosaurs.

Once you’ve drilled down you need to extract and separate the crude, remove any water etc and then pump it onto a ship specially built to transport it to somewhere else. You might also build a pipeline hundreds of miles to transport it.

The next step is then to refine this into products you can actually use, using huge amounts of heat and chemicals in specially made plants costing many billions of pounds to build and run. You’ll need to then transport this product using a fleet of specially made trucks to stations across the uk with big underground storage tanks where you can then pump this stuff into your vehicle.

Makes putting some fast chargers around the country seem quite tame really.

yes…..fair point, but you did need to build the power stations of what ever flavour first, using the dead dinosaurs to power to build them.

 

[daleyd]

yes…..fair point, but you did need to build the power stations of what ever flavour first, using the dead dinosaurs to power to build them.

Yes, where do you stop - the point being that apparently it’s going to be next to impossible to imagine sticking a network of fast chargers in…

And yet compared to other stuff that goes on that maybe you don’t actually see it doesn’t seem particularly onerous.

 

[GRW]

No-ones directly answered my question - just given peripheral information (or something entirely unrelated).

Again - who is footing the bill for the fast chargers?

 

[daleyd]

No-ones directly answered my question - just given peripheral information (or something entirely unrelated).

Again - who is footing the bill for the fast chargers?

At a guess a combination of the companies providing them, with some contribution from government? The companies providing them will be getting paid by people using them - the same way other things get paid for?

 

[rhubarb7]

No-ones directly answered my question - just given peripheral information (or something entirely unrelated).

Again - who is footing the bill for the fast chargers?

The bill payers. Our standing charge payment is to keep the network going.

 

[premmington]

Not one single company. There's a number of providers who have a national presence (BP Pulse, Osprey, Fastned, Tesla, Instavolt, Gridserve, Charge Place Scotland, PodPoint) but it can get complicated as to who owns what. If you want footfall in a food based shop and are in an area with low public charger availability then a rapid in the car park may not be a bad idea, companies like Chocolates of Glenshiel, or the two cafes at Tyndrum are good examples of how to get yourself onto the radar and get customers in the door who you can then work on for half an hour to pry their wallets open, and even out of hours have the asset paying for itself.

Yeah it is good business - EV drivers and there driving/charging habits - are "a product" now - to take money from! Very valid point...

 

[premmington]

The bill payers. Our standing charge payment is to keep the network going.

Yes... We all paying the "green levy" on energy bills mate...

 

[rhubarb7]

Yes... We all paying the "green levy" on energy bills mate...

Reminds me of the tv programme Guy Martin did, basically said if we want to use it, we have to pay for it.

Look how things have changed in our lifetime. My parents young years were paraffin heaters ffs!

 

[premmington]

Reminds me of the tv programme Guy Martin did, basically said if we want to use it, we have to pay for it.

Look how things have changed in our lifetime. My parents young years were paraffin heaters ffs!

I saw this programme - it all looked like "spin" to me...

How to justify the "spend"....


Sorry that sounded negative again...

 

[not done it yet]

No-ones directly answered my question - just given peripheral information (or something entirely unrelated).

Again - who is footing the bill for the fast chargers?

Her’s another. Who paid for the thousands of fuel stations? Not a lot of difference, I would suggest - if you think about it!

The bill payers. Our standing charge payment is to keep the network going.

Utterly ridiculous assertion. You conveniently forget a lot of things. Like grid reinforcement that is totally necessary.

Yeah it is good business - EV drivers and there driving/charging habits - are "a product" now - to take money from! Very valid point...

Agreed. I will use the system if/when I need. It will cost me 20%VAT, for a start. Unit costs are around a quid per unit at some outlets - hence I shall choose either a cheaper supplier and/or avoid public chargers as much as possible.

Renewable energy, while not ‘dispatchable’ is now far cheaper than fossil-derived electricity. Roll on the time the grid can operate without fossil burning power stations. If we don’t stop burning fossil fuels they will be used up. Make no mistake about that - just a bit later than the demise of the anti-renewable/pro fossil groups. It is a definite eventuality. However much the pro-fossil burners may try to argue, it won’t last indefinitely.

It is a simple, well known fact - fossil fuels were initiated about 150-200 million years ago. Very little since and none being produced now.

Reminds me of the tv programme Guy Martin did, basically said if we want to use it, we have to pay for it.

Look how things have changed in our lifetime. My parents young years were paraffin heaters ffs!

What has changed? Absolutely nothing - except that most could not do without their mobile phones, many choose to eat junk food, etc etc. The one major difference is that when it is no longer available nobody will pay for it, ‘cos it won’t be there to buy.

 

[premmington]

Your quote "Agreed. I will use the system if/when I need. It will cost me 20%VAT, for a start. Unit costs are around a quid per unit at some outlets - hence I shall choose either a cheaper supplier and/or avoid public chargers as much as possible.

Renewable energy, while not ‘dispatchable’ is now far cheaper than fossil-derived electricity. Roll on the time the grid can operate without fossil burning power stations. If we don’t stop burning fossil fuels they will be used up. Make no mistake about that - just a bit later than the demise of the anti-renewable/pro fossil groups. It is a definite eventuality. However much the pro-fossil burners may try to argue, it won’t last indefinitely.

It is a simple, well known fact - fossil fuels were initiated about 150-200 million years ago. Very little since and none being produced now."

--------

I get the logic of charging your EV at home - with the lessor energy capped KWH rate and the 5% VAT rate. I really do...

Wealthy people pay more tax than poor people.

ICE drivers are paying income tax to subsidise EV drivers home charging.... (they are) I get it...

And yes you are correct - no more fossil fuels are being made in the earth in the time scale required for the consumption rates we have now (growing consumption rates).

--------

I not anti renewables - I not anti EV cars - but the take up - is not gonna be fast enough - worldwide to resolve the problem - it will help for sure...

Less of us consuming less is the only obvious solution. How you get to this - I don't have an answer for and I think this is the bridge mankind will never cross. Is mankind doomed - maybe?

That maybe a bit too deep/negative for a sunny Sunday afternoon in June...

 

[not done it yet]

Premmington,

I wasn’t getting at you at all. It is those with their heads stuffed securely in the sand that really need to wake up and pay attention.

Using electrical energy, for motive power, has always been cheaper than ICE engines. The ICE has, for years (until recently), been the choice for mobile use - cars, any kit carried to where there is no grid connection (even portable electricity generators!). That is no longer the case as even batteries can be used as back-up power for driving machinery if the grid fails or in remote situations (think here the electrical excavators now being used) or where heavy loads used to be carried down-hill by large ICE dump trucks which can now return to the loading point on battery power derived from the gravitational charge, while descending with that heavy load.

Natural gas generation of electricity, using the appropriate system, is approx 50% more energy efficient than coal fired generation (it is also less polluting). Using all gas-fired electricity generation, to drive cars around, would consume less energy than ICE power. Nowadays, only about half the electricity consumed in the UK is produced from gas - the rest is either carbon neutral or plain renewable. The round-trip electric car efficiency is about 75-80%? Whereas for an ICE vehicle the efficiency is c.25%. Nobody can argue that these figures are not true (even if only approx).

Vis a vis, electricity is better than fossil fuel, will improve as fossil-generation declines, etc, etc. No real contest between the energy forms - electricity is cleaner and far more efficient. All it needs is application (of government, manufacturers and users) to fulfil that aim. We are on the way, not totally there yet (obviously) but working continuously towars that goal. Some clearly need to get used to it. Just another 30 years to manage it?

 

[rhubarb7]

Her’s another. Who paid for the thousands of fuel stations? Not a lot of difference, I would suggest - if you think about it!



Utterly ridiculous assertion. You conveniently forget a lot of things. Like grid reinforcement that is totally necessary.




Agreed. I will use the system if/when I need. It will cost me 20%VAT, for a start. Unit costs are around a quid per unit at some outlets - hence I shall choose either a cheaper supplier and/or avoid public chargers as much as possible.

Renewable energy, while not ‘dispatchable’ is now far cheaper than fossil-derived electricity. Roll on the time the grid can operate without fossil burning power stations. If we don’t stop burning fossil fuels they will be used up. Make no mistake about that - just a bit later than the demise of the anti-renewable/pro fossil groups. It is a definite eventuality. However much the pro-fossil burners may try to argue, it won’t last indefinitely.

It is a simple, well known fact - fossil fuels were initiated about 150-200 million years ago. Very little since and none being produced now.



What has changed? Absolutely nothing - except that most could not do without their mobile phones, many choose to eat junk food, etc etc. The one major difference is that when it is no longer available nobody will pay for it, ‘cos it won’t be there to buy.

I've said nothing ridiculous. Standing charge is to keep the network going and make sure the power lands at your door.

F*ck knows what your rant at the bottom about junk food and mobile phones is about.

Go sort your attitude out.

Electricity is greener it's greener he says, what provides most of electricity....You come across as a bible puncher.

Bet you don't talk to people like this in public.

 

[premmington]

I've said nothing ridiculous. Standing charge is to keep the network going and make sure the power lands at your door.

F*ck knows what your rant at the bottom about junk food and mobile phones is about.

Go sort your attitude out.

Electricity is greener it's greener he says, what provides most of electricity....You come across as a bible puncher.

Bet you don't talk to people like this in public.

Simon - I told you they lynch car mechanics on here.

Don't engage old mate - come hide behind me - I got broad shoulders!

I get frustrated with them at times - but at our age we gotta stay calm old mate!

 

[daleyd]

Simon - I told you they lynch car mechanics on here.

Don't engage old mate - come hide behind me - I got broad shoulders!

I get frustrated with them at times - but at our age we gotta stay calm old mate!

Don’t be daft, as a mechanic you know technical details and problems that owners would never know. Your opinion on those is obviously very respected.

What you won’t know (unless you own one) is the day to day practicalities of living with one, which is where people who do can chime in.

There’s more than one side to every story.